The Software forum and what it means....

[Malk-a-mite]

*Note - as I reread this it will most likely be edited numerous times before finally being finished.. or at least progressing to the point where I can no longer add anything to it. Please be aware of the work in progress nature... Thank you.

===============
Did we ask to leave or were we kicked out?

It seems the differences between the two forums back on Napster.com have surfaced once again. But I don't believe the differences are based on ability in any field or in knowledge of current event, or for that matter any topic at hand. The base difference is in how one handles questions and the respect one shows to the people asking and answering them.

Having threads based around posting pictures is fun for many people, myself included. Threads based on one word storytelling is a wonderful creative process, reguardless of how the story flows. This threads along with others define a style and offer a release in many ways for the members of a forum. The question arises in the manor in which the other threads in the forum are treated along with the fun based ones.


Whose forum is it?

Do some people feel that their view of how the board should be is more right than someone else's view? I think in many ways we all feel different about how we view the board. While it is common for only a few to voice their opinion about subject due to the inequalities across our members in the ability of passing messages across in the typed english language many members place themselves in a second class status by parroting a "me too" ideal. A common "That's what I wanted to say but you said it better" approach. This tends to place a few people in the lead as far as defining the feel of the forum, instead of having a true people's community.


Where do we go from here?

This is a question I have seen asked on countless boards, and in countless other situations. Personally I don't have a hard and fast, easy answer. I have ideas in which I try to push through my writings which mostly involve the members of the process standing up and voicing their opinion. I am merely a member of the great unwashed masses, my voice adds to the chorus of sound calling out and giving tone to the sound of humanity. My calls for change do nothing without the response of others around me.


So...... what does your voice sound like?

[gazdet]

Malk I moved your thread in here as the thread had produced some good points on the need to stay on topic
etc.

Also some suggestions were made re having separate forums to discuss relevant issues.

I originally intended for all subjects that were discussed at Napsterites to be primarily discussed in the Underground and then should a member feel a topic was worth storing , they could move them to the respective areas after the discussion was dealt with.

I do see your point about staying on topic, maybe that is the answer all along.

I think what is needed, is for you all to chew over what you would like to see and think thru all the ramifications (if any)

When you have a proposal put together for how we can run this, after discussion, we can implement it.


As for the thread of yours I moved in here....please feel free to move it anywhere you like.

I simply moved it into this forum after setting it up to get the ball rolling, it's easy for you to move it again.

At the bottom of your thread there is the Move feature which you, as a member, have had enabled for your use.

When you access it, you will see there are some options open to you re links and moving.

If you have any problems please ask..

I'll be following the threads and suggestions here closely

[Malk-a-mite]

Gaz first off - no worries.

I know why you moved it and I understand the reasons you had. I may not have done the same, but that is what the discussion is about.

Originally posted by gazdet
I think what is needed, is for you all to chew over what you would like to see and think thru all the ramifications (if any)

This is the essense of 90% of my posts on this board.
But to often people don't want to define what it is they want other than to complain when they dont get it.

So it's going to be either a constant headache for whoever is tasked with reading the minds of a group of people unwilling to discuss or a constant fight amonst a group of people unable or unwilling to hold a discussion on the topics that effect the forum.

[HellBound]

When the thread was moved..i kinda felt like we had done something wrong...oh my god...its a serious thread you better move it...it doesnt belong here....everyone wont want to answer or view it...so lets move it to another forum...

I mean if someone doesnt want to post..why even read the thread?....and why post and say...i dont want to reply to this cause it might start something....give me a break...if you cant handle people giving another opinion..why are you on a forum with people that are different then you?...why not go to a forum that everyone has the same opinion you have?...but then..that would be just a little boring wouldnt it.

On a forum you are always going to have someone that likes to cause problems, but that is what makes everything interesting...and you always have the option of not answering a post you dont want to...whether its someone flaming you...or a post you dont want to answer....

Just my opinion...

HellBound

[relic]

As of late I have found it increasingly difficult to find threads that are worthy of bumps. I like to bump thread that are either fun and exciting, people needing help and have not received any yet, or threads that are well thought or relating to current events. By me not finding too many of these threads it shows that a lot of people on the board see that opion oriented threads are not the threads that get a lot of replies. The humorous ones do. Now those threads are cool, but I find it refreshing to sometimes get threads that I have to think about and can post how I feel about the topic. I know of one user who makes threads that are thought provoking only to watch the thread only get about 1 or 2 replies containing 'content' and the rest are just 'good point *user*.'. This is real discouraging after you spend the itme looking up information and posting a well thought out post and having only 1 or 2 others share their viewpoint on the information. Now I'm just as guilty as everyone is about not always replying to well thought out threads, I'm just suggesting that we all work together on making this forum a little more 'thought provoking'. I know if this is the case...my job as bumper of threads would be a lot easier

that's just my opinion...

[Metal Girl]

Originally posted by HellBound
...give me a break...if you cant handle people giving another opinion..why are you on a forum with people that are different then you?...why not go to a forum that everyone has the same opinion you have?...but then..that would be just a little boring wouldnt it.

I can accept differing opinions, it's snotty remarks like that that piss me off. Just like I said.

edit...typo

[TankGirl]

One essential factor for message board dynamics is the plain number of posts and new threads that keeps flowing into it. A forum within a message board is like a resonation chamber with a limited capacity, determined by things like the size of the 'active area' (mostly the front page) and the general posting habits of the members (sticking into existing threads etc.). As long as the inflow of new posts and especially new threads does not reach this capacity the chamber can sustain a good number of very different vibrations which don't disturb each other but rather enrich the total vibrational state of the forum, keeping the board vibrant, versatile and interesting.

But when the popularity of the forum keeps increasing, the adverse effects of overloading start inevitably to show. The threads get blown too quickly out of the active area, leaving too little time for the ideas to form natural vibrations and resonances between the brains of the community. Instead of inspired collective vibrations there will be more and more forced bumping; instead of peaceful listening and reflecting on the ideas and themes presented there will be more and more shouting and shallow babbling etc. In short, the signal to noise ratio starts deteriorating. The rather personal nature of our average Underground posts adds to the problem: when N people say daily 'hi, how are you doing' to each other, it generates NxN chit-chat posts of no wider interest, making the active resonating area that more a narrow place for posts of some objective substance.

This development was clearly noticeable on the Nappy boards while their popularity kept continuously rising. The split to Speak Out and Software forums was inevitable simply because the channel capacity for a single forum was reached and exceeded. The fatal blow to the functionality of their boards was of course the horrible Slashdot implementation that prevented the use of thread 'hotness' as a cohesive force on the communication. That force taken away there was nothing to prevent the overloaded forums becoming black-hole-like singularities that suck all the energy fed into them without creating any sustained resonances whatsoever.

My feeling is that up till last few weeks The Underground has been handling the volume of our posting quite well. Lately, however, the signs of overcrowding have started to show, and instead of being a mutually enriching factor the very different energies of personal chit-chat and topic-oriented discussion have started to compete for the limited communication space and interfere with each other in a less fruitful way. After seeing and living through all the mistakes that Nappy did on their boards we can be wiser and experiment smoothly to find good ways to channel the increasing popularity of this board in a way that keeps everybody happy and prevents unnecessary frustration for different kinds of board members.

The broad idea of having The Underground as a chatroom-like forum and Software Forum as an on-topic discussion forum feels like a good approach to me at this stage. As a chatroom The Underground can handle a still good deal of more posting - many of the members probably even prefer to have it 'hot'... And as a relatively still place this Software Forum is all open for intelligent in-depth communication which - if it is to happen - will probably attract more intelligence into the forum in the course of time. We are here to experiment... so let's give it a go!

- tg

Well, I've always wanted to be very vocal, but not being too tech-oriented, I seldom know what to say. I guess I feel like A^3 as far as looking for things worth a click and all. I've tried to learn what I could during the last nine months at Napster and Napsterites, but I'll be the first to say I have a long way to go. I think that's the deal with a lot of people. Sometimes one can only say, "good point, so-and-so," because everything one sees is new to him or her. I surely wouldn't want to be dismissed because of my lack of ability. However, until I have better Net access, some time and some training, well, I'll still say "good point, so-and-so" a lot. Only on occasion do I have anything really different to say. On the good side of that, however, is the fact that there are many fruitful minds here who do have the experience that they can use to enlighten. Unfortunately, I've refrained from true content posting somewhat recently, for some of the flames. Hopefully, that will subside. Also, I hope this works out as a sort of "resonance chamber," as TG puts it.

One thing: as for the description of this board (Software), perhaps it would be helpful to clarify or modify "High Content." High content can either be amount of content or intellectual caliber. In the latter, it being potentially interpreted that way in some ways may make posters at the Underground section feel not up to scratch. I surely wouldn't want anyone feeling that way. That was part of the fiasco over the Napster BB Software/Speak Out cleaning/clash. Speak Out was "the trash can." People that post only in the Underground section should not feel that way since that only breeds contempt amongst everyone. Perhaps just leaving it at technically-oriented posts would be better. But this is all just my schmiel. Take it or leave it.

[Malk-a-mite]

Thinker points out a good problem -

In labeling the forum Software or having a "High Content" area it serves to scare away some people from posting.

High content in my opinion has never been about how much you know but more of how much effort you put into it. I don't run message boards - so in theroy I know absolutely nothing about this topic - but I have sat down and thought about the topic in it's reguard to myself and the others here and tried to form a well reasoned opinion about it.

That's all I ask of my fellow forum members in reguards to "High Content", but the title scares people - words have power.

So - assuming we get a few more people to poke their heads in here..... what is a possible alternative name?

[Metal Girl]

Originally posted by thinker
Well, I've always wanted to be very vocal, but not being too tech-oriented, I seldom know what to say. I guess I feel like A^3 as far as looking for things worth a click and all. I've tried to learn what I could during the last nine months at Napster and Napsterites, but I'll be the first to say I have a long way to go. I think that's the deal with a lot of people. Sometimes one can only say, "good point, so-and-so," because everything one sees is new to him or her. I surely wouldn't want to be dismissed because of my lack of ability. However, until I have better Net access, some time and some training, well, I'll still say "good point, so-and-so" a lot. Only on occasion do I have anything really different to say. On the good side of that, however, is the fact that there are many fruitful minds here who do have the experience that they can use to enlighten. Unfortunately, I've refrained from true content posting somewhat recently, for some of the flames. Hopefully, that will subside. Also, I hope this works out as a sort of "resonance chamber," as TG puts it.

One thing: as for the description of this board (Software), perhaps it would be helpful to clarify or modify "High Content." High content can either be amount of content or intellectual caliber. In the latter, it being potentially interpreted that way in some ways may make posters at the Underground section feel not up to scratch. I surely wouldn't want anyone feeling that way. That was part of the fiasco over the Napster BB Software/Speak Out cleaning/clash. Speak Out was "the trash can." People that post only in the Underground section should not feel that way since that only breeds contempt amongst everyone. Perhaps just leaving it at technically-oriented posts would be better. But this is all just my schmiel. Take it or leave it.

Excellent points, all of em!!!

[gazdet]

Well put TankGirl, I see your very observant!

As Maze said too, I certainly didn't wish for there to be a "split" within the Napsterites, as such, however as always, there can be subtle changes.

Introducing new Forums to Post into, as you have explained above, is a valid concept.

As I have explained before, there is no problem with members moving their threads to areas that are more appropriate as the need arises, at any stage.

There is an option to leave a link from the Underground to whatever forum is established now and in the future, when you move your threads, if you wish to discuss them in the Underground first. (as was my first thoughts on this matter)

Reychal has also suggested a "serious topic" forum as well.

Again...we need to think about the ramifications of possibly "dividing" people that want to post a "serious type" thread and then "losing" those threads in a new forum should nobody check them out.

This may not be a problem however, as I feel that the people that mainly wish to discuss "on topic/content" type threads will be the ones moving those threads anyway, should you wish to post the thread in the Underground first..

In time, I'm sure that people will filter into the specific forum areas of their choice and could still view the main Underground Forum as the main starting point, if keeping the topics highly visible is a problem.

This may in time change as any new forum areas take on a life of their own.

It's really up to you guys how you want it to run this.

There is no problem with adding specific forums, all you need to do is agree amongst yourselves, how many forum areas you would like and what you want to call them.

So think about it and let's give it a try....if it doesn't work, we can always combine the threads back into the main Underground

[Malk-a-mite]

Originally posted by Metal Girl

Sorry guys, I hear you in your call for no 'I Agree' posts, nontheless, here I go...
Excellent points, all of em!!! :b: :J: :b:

Ok.....

Now MG - just like my teachers in school used to say:

"That's very good, now say it in your own words."


We've heard from Thinker, now I personally, want to hear from you. Please.

[Metal Girl]

Originally posted by Malk-a-mite
So - assuming we get a few more people to poke their heads in here..... what is a possible alternative name?

Well, I think (and again, just my opinion here) that this portion of the forum should be called the Underground, and the other side where all the jokes, getting to know you and fun' polls types of threads are, should be called something else...

Something that reflects the 'fun' a lot of people come here for, and a name that would make it evident that all such 'just for shits and giggles' threads should, whenever possible, be posted in there...Nothing other than Chit Chat for a name comes to mind, lol. Maybe the Chit Chat Club? lol

[gazdet]

Originally posted by thinker


One thing: as for the description of this board (Software), perhaps it would be helpful to clarify or modify "High Content."

Good point Thinker,

Early days yet....I have removed that description, as we develop these Forums, you can recommend what description they fall into ....let me know

[gazdet]

Originally posted by Metal Girl
Well, I think (and again, just my opinion here) that this portion of the forum should be called the Underground, and the other side where all the jokes, getting to know you and fun' polls types of threads are, should be called something else...

Something that reflects the 'fun' a lot of people come here for, and a name that would make it evident that all such 'just for shits and giggles' threads should, whenever possible, be posted in there...Nothing other than Chit Chat for a name comes to mind, lol. Maybe the Chit Chat Club? lol

anything is possible

[Metal Girl]

Originally posted by Malk-a-mite
Ok.....

Now MG - just like my teachers in school used to say:

"That's very good, now say it in your own words."


We've heard from Thinker, now I personally, want to hear from you. Please.

Umm, my days of High School have long passed me by Malk...I have learned a few things...If I can't say anything better than somebody else has, and I wanna get across the same points, don't make myself look like a complete retard just paraphrasing another persons words.

When I have my own points to make that no one other than myself has made...You can be sure I'll make em...

[TankGirl]

Originally posted by gazdet
As Maze said too, I certainly didn't wish for there to be a "split" within the Napsterites, as such, however as always, there can be subtle changes.

I wouldn't be too worried about a split being developed as long as the positive and playful spirit of The Underground is being protected by appropriate moderation. Nappy allowed their Speak Out to turn into a trashcan by leaving it unmoderated and we are certainly wiser than that. As long as the haters are kept out and troublemakers in order I see no reason why The Underground would not serve as a common meeting place for the entire Napsterite community. Instead being a Speak Out -like trashcan or a 'second rate forum' it would be more like a marketplace or a Hyde Park where you can pop into anybody and speak to anybody/everybody as you are moved to. There is always a lot of chatting and laughter in a marketplace and you never know what is on sale on each day. But that does not prevent professors and workers enjoying it alike - that is the very reason that makes it interesting for everybody.

The Underground would be the natural place to post the newspapers and give the virus warnings and other announcements of direct importance to all forum members. Being noisy and crowded it would not be the place for in-depth discussions between larger groups of people but for that we would have the Software Forum. See it as an open discussion club if you wish. The only precondition for attending it would be the elementary self-discipline of staying roughly on topics and putting some thought into what is being said. This approach does not contain any social discrimination or mob/elite polarization - it simply acknowledges the two different modes of communication and the different energies associated with them.

- tg

[gazdet]

As for moderating techniques here, a lot goes on behind the scenes and the Underground is in fact closely "moderated" as such, it is however, a difficult task at times, given the very dynamics of the members that make it what it is, as you have indicated in your earlier post. ....But thats for another thread perhaps

As for your comments above, I agree TG however, how would you suggest we deal with a topic that is Quite popular yet not in any way Software related...i.e religion/politics etc, should it come up?

Would you still see that as falling under the "Software Forum" area?

[Maze]

I think perhaps the sooner you get away from "Software" the better. Afterall, what software? This is not Napster software nor the Napster board, nor should we be imitating it ...in fact, we should know better.

If anything, I think the name Napsterites probably ought to come to mean all software (perhaps with a musical slant) and the peer to peer file sharing methods over the net of obtaining it which seems to be TankGirl's forte' anyway. I think we ought to set her up in here to write the Napsterites program that outperforms all the others lol! You can do it TG!

(Underground) Instead of being a Speak Out -like a trashcan or a 'second rate forum' it would be more like a marketplace or a Hyde Park where you can pop in to see anybody and speak to anybody/everybody as you are moved to. There is always a lot of chatting and laughter in a marketplace and you never know what is on sale on each day. But that does not prevent professors and workers enjoying it alike - that is the very reason that makes it interesting for everybody.

This is an extremely good way of looking at it Tanked one!

Straight up ...it should remain being called "The Underground". "Chit Chat Club" is right out! lol Thank God you were only kidding MG! Actually this place may not have to be too terribly specific in a name going by the content inside. People get a good idea of what its about by the general tone & atmosphere of whats in there. If one is "Underground" I suggest "Aboveground".

Or how about:

Lowbrow
Highbrow

Hahaha! lol ...just kidding. Or perhaps any name that might suggest a location or area like left wing right wing ect. Anyway, maybe ...I'm just talking off the top of my head, but you catch my drift. That's enough for this post. Schoomky's right, we're writing novels over here. lol

[relic]

Here is another suggestion for forum names: General Discussion (Underground) and Specific Discussion (Software)