Iran: A Bridge too Far?

[multi]

so the US should never leave Iraq?
because you will not enforce democracy on them any other way

Churchill used to trace his Zionism back to the days of the Balfour Declaration, describing himself as "an old Zionist." His attitude toward Zionism remained as passionate and as explicit following his return to Ten Downing Street in 1951. Now, however, with the State of Israel firmly in place, the images he entertained became perhaps more vivid, more colorful, and as ever imbued with historical resonance.

Thus, in June 1954, Churchill stated to journalists in the United States, "I am a Zionist, let me make that clear. I was one of the original ones after the Balfour Declaration and I have worked faithfully for it." This was merely the introduction. He went on: "I think it is a most wonderful thing that this community should have established itself so effectively, turning the desert into fertile gardens and thriving townships, and should have afforded refuge to millions of their co-religionists who suffered so fearfully under Hitler, and not only under Hitler, persecution. I think it is a wonderful thing." In a conversation with Israel's Ambassador in London, Eliyahu Elath, Churchill referred to Israel's population as "the sons of the prophets dwelling in Zion."

this fucker was a complete asshole... get real

because of him and Rothschild that there is such a problem there in the first place

As Colonial Secretary, he virtually cut off Trans-Jordan from the Palestine Mandated territory (1921), and in the Churchill White Paper (1922) formulated what he believed would remain the basis of Anglo Jewish cooperation. His subsequent attacks against the measures proposed in the Passfield White Paper of 1939 were based on the premise that they constituted a breach of an agreed policy expressed in his own White Paper.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by multi

so the US should never leave Iraq?
because you will not enforce democracy on them any other way

Well it depends on what you mean by the USA should never leave. Did the USA really ever leave Japan or West Germany, (Germany today), after WWII?? 60 years later the USA does have interest in these countries. Are things there awful because of it?

And I am not forcing Democracy on anybody.

[multi]

I didn't mean to infer that you were personaly..

but the west and it previous incarnation has been enforcing democracy on a large portion of the human race for the last few hundered years
usually leaving some civil war in it's wake

history does have a habit of repeating itself. To ignore the lessons of history is to be doomed to repeat it.

[RDixon]

it's not the 1930s and Iran is not even close in comparison to Germany.
that argument not only doesn't fly, it sinks too.

Iran has done nothing to me or the USA and I do not believe they have plans to attack me or my country.

If they do attack us then we WILL make their country uninhabatible for a few thousand years.
I know this, you know it, and most important, Iran knows it.

Cheney & Bush are frothing at the mouth wanting to invade Iran for Israel but there is a big fly in the wrench and monkey in the ointment.
After their Iraq justifications proved to be ALL LIES, we the american people will not allow another illegal war. period, end of story.

they can rattle their sabers all they want but Bush & Cheney are both paper ducks now. the best they can hope for is to stall the withdrawel of troops from the lost war in Iraq until Bush leaves office.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by RDixon

it's not the 1930s and Iran is not even close in comparison to Germany.
that argument not only doesn't fly, it sinks too.

Iran has done nothing to me or the USA and I do not believe they have plans to attack me or my country.

If they do attack us then we WILL make their country uninhabatible for a few thousand years.
I know this, you know it, and most important, Iran knows it.

Cheney & Bush are frothing at the mouth wanting to invade Iran for Israel but there is a big fly in the wrench and monkey in the ointment.
After their Iraq justifications proved to be ALL LIES, we the american people will not allow another illegal war. period, end of story.

they can rattle their sabers all they want but Bush & Cheney are both paper ducks now. the best they can hope for is to stall the withdrawel of troops from the lost war in Iraq until Bush leaves office.

hope you're right but the Prez seems hellbent for a constitutional confrontation.

[RDixon]

Originally Posted by theknife

hope you're right but the Prez seems hellbent for a constitutional confrontation.

it's not 2002 either.
the rubber stamp congress is gone.
the neocon enablers were sent to the unemployment line.
the prez can be impeached now and he is on thin ice.
even bush isn't stupid enough to chop out a circle around him in the ice.

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by RDixon

...even bush isn't stupid enough to chop out a circle around him in the ice.

Ya think?

Just hope for the good of the nation that you are right on this one.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by RDixon

it's not the 1930s and Iran is not even close in comparison to Germany. that argument not only doesn't fly, it sinks too.

Iran has done nothing to me or the USA and I do not believe they have plans to attack me or my country.

If they do attack us then we WILL make their country uninhabatible for a few thousand years.

Well then we will have to disagree, because if you really look at the situations, Iran is in somewhat the same situation Germany was in, in 1938. One difference is Hitler tried to keep is plans a secret and the only country willing to say Germany was a threat to the World was England, or I should say Churchill and a few of his party members. In Iran it is no secret, Iran is building nuclear weapons and has said they attend to wipe Israel off the map, oh and you do know they call America the Great Satan right? Yeah right, you have nothing to worry about. Why would some Muslim Extremist who considers the USA the Great Satan what to hurt Americans. Sure the bleeding hearts will say he is bluffing, but really how do you know he is bluffing, how can you take that chance? President Tom says one thing to the world like at the UN and then goes home and tells his people the opposite and threatens the world. Take a look at Iran, look at the cartoons they show their kids or their so called “Investigated Reports”, Iran broadcast one explaining how Coca-cola, the big America company invests billions of dollars into Israel so they can invade Iran and kill everyone. Of course it is absolutely ridiculous, put that is just the tip of the iceberg of what Iran is selling their citizens. Maybe it will take another 9/11 to get people to realize the scope of Iran and the Middle East, I think the next attack, WHEN it happens will be much bigger.

Whether they want to be in that position or not?

I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.

Who are you talking about? Who didn’t want democracy? The insurgents? The Terrorist? The Dictators? The citizens?

I think one of those four did want democracy, guess which one.

The rest of your post is non-sense.

[RDixon]

Originally Posted by Sinner

Well then we will have to disagree, because if you really look at the situations, Iran is in somewhat the same situation Germany was in, in 1938.

Not even remotely close.


The truth is the same as it was with Iraq; Iran is not a threat to the USA.
The USA is NOT Israel.
If Iran nukes Israel; so what?
Israel then retaliates and the problem solves itself without costing me a dime or a trillion dollars.

If the Israeli people don't like that possible future then let them change it or avoid it or maybe even change their government which is leading them on the path to destruction.
Not my problem and I will not allow it to become my government's problem like they did with Iraq.

[Sinner]

So you would take the stance the USA took when Germany invaded Poland and France during the World War. It is miles away so who cares. Well it didn’t take long for America to get attacked did it? America showed weakness and paid for it. Iran does not need to attack the USA directly, there are thousands of people standing in line to harm the USA, whether it be a dirty bomb, release chemicals in major cities, fly planes into buildings, or even fill a truck up with diesel fuel and fertilizer. And Iran supports and will help any and all of them any way they can.

If Iran nukes Israel there is no question the USA, Britain, and other allies will be in a full scale war with Iran and their allies and because nukes were used the cost to you and your nation will far exceed what Iraq has cost. There is no way you can believe America would allow an Extremist like President Tom nuke any country, never mind Israel and America is joined at the hip with Israel like it or not. It already is your government's problem, again like it or not, you may choose to ignore it and vote for bleeding heart liberals, it will not change this fact.

Last month there was a Gulf Cooperation Council meeting which included six of the Arab states, they met in Saudi Arabia and did a lot of talking about the threats from Iran. It is a fact that Iran is providing material for support on attacks against American troops, One of the Arab leaders reached the conclusion that Iran has already drawn up plans to take over Iraq once the USA backs out. They also determined that Iran is increasingly putting a stranglehold on Lebanon, by funding Hezbollah, and on Syria, a country that is dependent on them for support. Iran wants the take over the Middle East. Egypt released a statement saying "We don't want nuclear arms in the area but we are obligated to defend ourselves...It is irrational that we sit and watch from the sidelines when we might be attacked at any moment."

Sounds like they want nukes too, sounds like there maybe another arms race. No way the USA stands by and allows this to happen, even if it just means they put more money into weapon development to stay ahead of the game. To win in Iraq the USA and the rest of the Middle East will have to get control of Iran by what ever means necessary, be that talks or be that war. I hope talks but really has that ever worked????

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by RDixon

I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.

If I happened to be a prisoner living under house arrest for a crime I didn't commit, like say the population of Iraq circa 2002, you would be doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by RDixon

The truth is the same as it was with Iraq; Iran is not a threat to the USA.
The USA is NOT Israel.
If Iran nukes Israel; so what?
Israel then retaliates and the problem solves itself without costing me a dime or a trillion dollars.

Sinner's analysis seems pretty close to me, but if it's money you're worried about then what you should focus on is Iran's effect on the oil markets and the oil markets' effect on gas prices and the overall economic situation here at home. If we can nullify those effects by finding alternative energy sources then that's what we should do, but that solution is still a few years off and Iran's threat is imminent. It absolutely sucks, but that's the situation today and we've gotta deal with it. You may not think that military action is necessary, and you're probably right, but you can't seriously believe that no action is necessary.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by multi

oh come now Mazer.. you have supported everything the neocons have done so far

I have up to this point, but I have to concede that there have not been enough troops sent to Iraq and this minimalist strategy seems to be taking a toll, not just on public opinion (which really doesn't matter during wartime) but on the ability of the Army to secure Baghdad. It's probably time for a more conventional approach.

I can still remember a time when almost every American supported the neocons and Bush's approval rating was better than 85%.

Originally Posted by multi

the west and it previous incarnation has been enforcing democracy on a large portion of the human race for the last few hundered years
usually leaving some civil war in it's wake

I think what you're suggesting is technically impossible. We've certainly tried to defend democracy from totalitarianism with varying effect. You see, the great thing about democracy is that the voters have the right to relinquish their rights if that's what they want to do. Not surprisingly no nation has ever done so voluntarily, so we try to keep outside forces from causing democracies to collapse. If that's what you're complaining about then I wonder how you can stand to live in a democratic nation like Australia. Are you suggesting that people do not deserve the responsibilities we offer to them by fighting off their enemies?

We can't really give democracy to people, all we can do is put them in the position to govern themselves. We hope they will do so wisely, but if they can't then it's because of their own intolerance and prejudice. You can blame the people who offered them the opportunity to be free all you want, but in the end a democratic nation has to collectively determine its own future, and the all the credit and the blame for their actions lies with them.

[RDixon]

Originally Posted by Mazer

We can't really give democracy to people, all we can do is put them in the position to govern themselves.

Whether they want to be in that position or not?

I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.

[multi]

All the signs are that Bush is planning for a neocon-inspired military assault on Iran

Dan Plesch


The evidence is building up that President Bush plans to add war on Iran to his triumphs in Iraq and Afghanistan - and there is every sign, to judge by his extraordinary warmongering speech in Plymouth on Friday, that Tony Blair would be keen to join him if he were still in a position to commit British forces to the field.

"There's a strong sense in the upper echelons of the White House that Iran is going to surface relatively quickly as a major issue - in the country and the world - in a very acute way," said NBC TV's Tim Russert after meeting the president. This is borne out by the fact that Bush has sent forces to the Gulf that are irrelevant to fighting the Iraqi insurgents. These include Patriot anti-missile missiles, an aircraft carrier, and cruise-missile-firing ships.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1990498,00.html