War on terror to last till 2040?

[vernarial]

We need to seek out the cause of terrorism and fix the problem, not go to war with the symptom which is terrorism. Ignore terrorism? No. Go to war forever to try and stop it? I'm not going to back a perpetual war. Let alone the next 34 years.

I'd like to know how invading Iraq and Afghanistan has helped win a "war on terror"? Everyone knows that the World Trade Center attack was perpetrated by Saudi Arabian terrorists. Why are we still friends with them? Why don't we invade Saudi Arabia? How has the ability to sneak and peak in American homes (read Patriot Act) helped? How has classifying civil protest groups as domestic terrorist groups helped? How has the reclassification of what constitutes torture helped? Why would they include a section immuning themselves from prosecution concerning torture unless they were afraid of being prosecuted?

Sorry, getting a bit off topic. Maybe all of that is fine with some people, but not with me.

[Necrodancer]

Originally Posted by vernarial

We need to seek out the cause of terrorism and fix the problem

Ah, the ever present "root causes" meme. Seeking understanding and enjoying a little dhimmitude has always worked when dealing with homicidal religious maniacs. Perhaps we can bake them cookies!

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by theknife

the "war on terror" can never be "won".

It'll end, one way or another. What do you suppose that end will be, and when?

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by Necrodancer

Ah, the ever present "root causes" meme. Seeking understanding and enjoying a little dhimmitude has always worked when dealing with homicidal religious maniacs. Perhaps we can bake them cookies!

And whats wrong with trying to find the root cause? We wouldn't know if "Seeking understanding and enjoying a little dhimmitude(not sure thats even a word)" would even work. We haven't tried it.

Why won't you answer some of my questions instead of just making smart assed comments? I did my best to answer your question intelligently. If you are trying to make me seem silly and foolish for my point of view, I think you are having the opposite effect.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by vernarial

Why won't you answer some of my questions instead of just making smart assed comments?

he can't - that's all he's got.

[Mazer]

Dhimmitude normally refers to Muslim-state sponsored protection racketeering for non-Muslims. The word is a pejorative. It hasn't worked to solve terrorism: as you say the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi and every day we pay Saudi Arabia millions of dollars for oil. Those monies could be thought of as tribute, as if the United States was Saudi Arabia's client state under its protection. The fact that we have the Saudi government protecting our economic interests has not prevent Saudi terrorists from attacking us. Of course, not all terrorists come from that one country so we can't just focus on them. Trying to figure out what motivates terrorists is like trying to figure out why africanized honeybees swarm and kill people. We already know why, and it's too late to fix the problem.

[albed]

Originally Posted by vernarial

We need to seek out the cause of terrorism and fix the problem

Who's "we"? Can there possibly be other dimwits who haven't learned how religious terrorism is spred? You should all get together and google "madrassa", "wahhabism", "koran", etc.


Or you could just continue saying you need to do something without actually doing it. Lot easier, less brain-strain.

[Necrodancer]

Whoa! I think I found the fabled "root cause", from a little known tome called the "Koran", I hear muslims might read it:

"It doesn't matter whether people know what I did," he says. "The only person who matters is Allah--and the only question he will ask me is 'How many infidels did you kill?'"

fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush

fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah

Do I get a prize now for solving the endless riddle of the "root cause"?

[legion]

NO!

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)



The root cause is not the Koran, it is religion in general. No Price for you

[Necrodancer]

Originally Posted by legion

The root cause is not the Koran, it is religion in general. No Price for you

If Christians and Jews were blowing themselves up to kill non-Christians and Jews I might be inclined to agree with you, thankfully though they're more civilized.

[legion]

Lo and behold ladies and gentleman, I just gave you the root cause.

hypocrisy

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by albed

Who's "we"? Can there possibly be other dimwits who haven't learned how religious terrorism is spred? You should all get together and google "madrassa", "wahhabism", "koran", etc.


Or you could just continue saying you need to do something without actually doing it. Lot easier, less brain-strain.

More smart assed comments from the gallery. It's nice to know that you know me better than myself. You assume I don't do anything, when in fact I do.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to turn this into a religious discussion. I agree that organised religion is a part of the cause, but I don't believe it is the one and only root cause.

What about some of my other questions, such as.....

Why do you think we are in Iraq? Why should the politicians need to lie to us if their motives were genuinely good? How has the ability to sneak and peak in American homes (read Patriot Act) helped in the war on terror? How has classifying civil protest groups as domestic terrorist groups helped? How has the reclassification of what constitutes torture helped? Why would they include a section immuning themselves from prosecution concerning torture unless they were afraid of being prosecuted?

[albed]

Originally Posted by vernarial

Why do you think we are in Iraq?

Again with the "we". I feel safe in assuming that "you" are not in Iraq and know for certain that I am not and can't help but think that you are a complete imbecile for not comprehending even that simple fact. And there's no sense in telling a complete imbecile anything.

[Necrodancer]

Originally Posted by vernarial

Why do you think we are in Iraq?

Bush laid out the reasoning in his 2003 SotU speech. read up.

Why should the politicians need to lie to us if their motives were genuinely good?

Faulty intel = LIE!

How has the ability to sneak and peak in American homes (read Patriot Act) helped in the war on terror?

Can you offer proof that it hasn't?

How has classifying civil protest groups as domestic terrorist groups helped?

Please provide some examples.

How has the reclassification of what constitutes torture helped?

Sure. Barking dogs and loud music are not torture and should never be classified as such. A guy in NY can be picked up for selling a dime bag, the police can yell in his face and tell him he's going to jail, and they are perfectly within the law in doing so. If that was done to an enemy combatant that would be termed torture. Something is obviously wrong there and needed to be fixed.

Why would they include a section immuning themselves from prosecution concerning torture unless they were afraid of being prosecuted?

Because foreign nations (read: EUROPE) are pussified appeasement specialists and deem harsh words yelled at a detainee to be cruel and unusual torture.

[legion]

Thank gawd here we have another idiot, not hindered by any knowledge what so ever thank you so very much, who thinks of himself a specialist on how we europeans think?

Please explain to this dutchy how i think? Last time i checked we are still situated on the european continent

[Necrodancer]

Originally Posted by legion

Thank gawd here we have another idiot, not hindered by any knowledge what so ever thank you so very much, who thinks of himself a specialist on how we europeans think?

Please explain to this dutchy how i think? Last time i checked we are still situated on the european continent

I can only go on the info I have, such as Belguim and their kooky "universal jurisdiction" going after Tommy Franks, or German yahoos wanting to prosecute Rumsfeld. You guys whine and seethe over the "atrocities" committed against terrorists.

ergo, appeasement specialists.

[legion]

So Belgium and Germany is Europe? That is as dumb as saying that, insert two states here, make up for the entire U.S.A.

But let me guess, you get your info from the mainstream media mainly Fox right?

I have posted this before but here, just for you.

fox is not fair and balanced on the right of that page click "Bekijk hier de uitzending OUTFOXED" a annoying 1 minute dutch intro and some pesky dutch subtitles but you will be able to figure out what it is all about.

and here also posted earlier. I can not even begin to express how proud you must be with place 53 right along such great democraties like Tonga, Croatia and Botswana. 8 places below Mozambique. 12 places below El Salvador.

If this is the freedom you are trying to spread around the world, than by all means KEEP IT!

[Necrodancer]

I don't even watch Fox you twit.

Good kneejerk reaction though, totally typical of your type.

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by albed

Again with the "we". I feel safe in assuming that "you" are not in Iraq and know for certain that I am not and can't help but think that you are a complete imbecile for not comprehending even that simple fact. And there's no sense in telling a complete imbecile anything.

No but my brother and 2 of my close cousins are in Iraq. I'm sorry if I over generalised. I mean military personel of the USA and of course citizens of Iraq. Military personel to be specific. I mean we as in Everyone in the USA because we can only blame it on ourselves for allowing it to happen. I am included. I was all for the war when it began, but I can admit my mistakes. I trusted my leaders and they lied to me.

Whether you think I am an imbecile or not is up to you. And yet you continue to answer with only smart assed(well maybe dumb assed) comments to my inquiries. At least Necrodancer takes the time to refute my argument and maybe change my opinion.
These are in response to Necrodancers answer to my questions.

On question 1 I don't believe Bush or anything he says, but I will look into it more.

On question 2 I would have to disagree. Are you telling me that they didn't lie?

On question 3 I have heard of several instances where the "sneak and peek" tactics have been used against regular american citizens. Here is an old, but pertinent article about the subject. http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030...0549-8745r.htm
Pretty much they can come into your house and take any info without letting anyone know. They can also get info from others concerning you(or I) and if they tell you(or I) that the government is looking up on you(or I) they can be charged and imprisoned. That is the truth. Read the Patriot Act.

#4. Look at the FBI screwing with Martin Luther King. Yeah, that was a long time ago, but do you really think they have changed all that much? PETA is on the list of domestic terrorists. That is People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/dom...ism/index.html

#5

Sure. Barking dogs and loud music are not torture and should never be classified as such. A guy in NY can be picked up for selling a dime bag, the police can yell in his face and tell him he's going to jail, and they are perfectly within the law in doing so. If that was done to an enemy combatant that would be termed torture. Something is obviously wrong there and needed to be fixed.

I agree. But we don't need to rule out the Geneva Convention. We should still treat other humans in a humane way. How we would like our brothers in arms to be treated in a war.

#6

Because foreign nations (read: EUROPE) are pussified appeasement specialists and deem harsh words yelled at a detainee to be cruel and unusual torture.

Well that is your point of view. I personally think that pre-emptive war is tantamount to a war crime. It is attacking someone without provocation. Now I admit that before the war with Iraq I was a proponent. I thought of it as seeing a bully coming at you with a knife. You don't wait for the bully to stab you. You defend yourself. Now I see the error of my ways(or the lies of the politicians). It could be like telling your kid on the playground to kick a smaller kids butt because you think that kid might grow up to be a bigger kid and a bigger bully.
I see the lies I was told by my government to excuse the war. I wasn't told the truth. I will give any yahoo off the street a chance, but if he lies to me(and gets a bunch of my compatriots killed) I have a hard time believing anything they say. Especially when it seems they are trying to cover their tracks. I can see why the Europeans or any others would want to try Bush or his cronies in a court of law. You don't seriously think they added the new Torture immunity because they were worried about Europe do you? I'm sure Bush could live comfortably in Crawford for the rest of his days.

OK I'm done for now.

[legion]

Twit? why thank you, you vapid fucknut.
I never claimed you did watch Fox. I said:"let me GUESS" but i understand that the word guess must be a difficult one for you. I mean english is only your first language.
And did you see that question mark at the end of that sentence? Probably not but take a closer look I was actually asking a question.

Typical of my type. I will consider that a compliment.
Twice now you claim to know how I, or other Europeans, think based on the gas you blow out of your ass. When are you going to astound us with some FACTS on how we think? <--- Hint, that is a question!

It is so funny that twice in a row now, you rip my posts totally out of context yet are able to debunk yourself. Albed is that you?