P2P-Zone  

Go Back   P2P-Zone > Political Asylum
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Political Asylum Publicly Debate Politics, War, Media.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17-04-07, 04:36 PM   #61
Ramona_A_Stone
Formal Ball Proof
 
Ramona_A_Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albed View Post
Wow, observing the weather makes people "incredulous experts" to Ramona!
Uhm, no. You were not merely observing the weather, you were attempting, however lamely, to use your observations of the weather to deride an idea which you clearly have chosen 'not to believe in,' and you seem to think that because it's been 20 degrees colder than usual where you live lately, you can make a mockery of the concept of global warming.

Saying "now cold wave-global warming" as if it's something thought of last week during an unseasonably cool evening implies you know little about even the most general theories of climate change, because the concept that erratic weather, global cooling, and indeed 'another ice age' could be the ultimate result of global warming has been ubiquitously inherent to them for decades. Also inherent to them is the idea that micro-anomalies are quite meaningless, indeed changes over decades and even centuries can be quite meaningless, and there simply isn't enough data to draw firm conclusions. One certainly isn't going to insist that every local flood, drought or cold snap is evidence of anything.

But then I'm not the one using micro-anomalies to try to make a point, am I?

Nope.
Ramona_A_Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-07, 05:29 PM   #62
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,231
Default

I don't "choose" to believe or disbelieve, the evidence and rationale either convinces me or doesn't.

Frankly the evidence has been very questionable and I've observed the rationale mutate over the years to become more acceptable to potential converts. Even the name "global warming" is being altered to "climate change" to make it more indistinct and less disprovable.

Now, no matter what happens to the climate, the global warming dogma will have predicted it and predetermined it's cause; mankinds activity. So the faithful will have no reason to doubt and leave the fold.

But still; "global cooling can be caused by global warming" just seems too irrational for even the most ignorant and gullible to accept.
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-07, 05:58 PM   #63
Ramona_A_Stone
Formal Ball Proof
 
Ramona_A_Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,948
Default

I ask myself what I could possibly say to make the scope of your ignorance more obvious and realize A: I could never compete with you yourself because you work so hard at it preserving it, and B: half a squirrel neuron in a petri dish of gelatin would surely get it anyway.

Ramona_A_Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-07, 06:21 PM   #64
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,231
Default

I'm so glad you found your intellectual equal. Enjoy conversing with it.
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-07, 06:30 PM   #65
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone View Post
Saying "now cold wave-global warming" as if it's something thought of last week during an unseasonably cool evening implies you know little about even the most general theories of climate change, because the concept that erratic weather, global cooling, and indeed 'another ice age' could be the ultimate result of global warming has been ubiquitously inherent to them for decades.
True, in fact that idea was so ubiquitous decades ago that everyone thought an ice age was already beginning. It never occurred to anybody that the mid-century cooling trend would end and temperatures would rebound by more than a degree celsius before the end of the century. The predictions have changed, but the alarmism hasn't subsided.

Quote:
Also inherent to them is the idea that micro-anomalies are quite meaningless, indeed changes over decades and even centuries can be quite meaningless, and there simply isn't enough data to draw firm conclusions. One certainly isn't going to insist that every local flood, drought or cold snap is evidence of anything.

But then I'm not the one
using micro-anomalies to try to make a point, am I?
Nobody has tried to make that point. We're observing that this winter has lasted ten weeks longer than Punxsutawney Phill predicted. Two extra months of relatively cold weather is anomalous but notable because nobody anticipated it, to my knowledge. Maybe other groundhogs got it right, in which case their word is more reliable than any climatologist's.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-07, 07:09 PM   #66
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

I watched An Inconvenient Truth last year after downloading it (I didn't feel the need to pay to see it) and I though it was well made, well reasoned, and optimistic about humanity's ability to fix global problems. But Gore skimmed over most of the science in his slide show and focused more on drama. Al Gore is an alarmist, by definition, and alarmism has come to exemplify the issue of anthropogenic global warming. So where's the science?

I came across this documentary in two parts today that discusses many of the points made in Gore's documentary as well as this year's IPCC report. The science simply does not support pessimism, and in many cases it doesn't support any moral conclusions at all, and that's what this video makes clear. It is a speech given by Dr. Steven Hayward, a scientist who for the past twelve years has compiled an annual report on environmental issues, the Index of Leading Environmental Indicators. His studies have highlighted all the improvements our civilization has made to the environment as well as the areas where more improvement is still needed. This is the man with his hand on the pulse of environmental science.

This documentary shows that the so called 'scientific consensus' on global warming is anything but. There is conflicting and sometimes contradictory evidence in the field of global climate, but mostly there's just a lot of uncertainty. So be wary of any person who tells you that the science is settled and the debate is closed, study the science yourself and find your own conclusions.

An Inconvenient Truth... or Convenient Fiction?
Part 1
Part 2

Edit: A copy of the Index of Leading Environmental Indicators, Twelfth Edition is available here (PDF, 3.3MB) from the Pacific Research Institute for those interested in reading some good news about the environment for a change.

Last edited by Mazer : 22-04-07 at 01:06 AM.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-07, 08:07 AM   #67
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,231
Default

John Kerry follows in Al Gore's footsteps.

With the release of his book: "This Moment on Earth: Today's New Environmentalists and Their Vision for the Future" Kerry got the same hypocrisy check of his energy consumption that Gore got, with the same result; another energy pig.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics....20070416a.html
Quote:
As Sen. John Kerry promotes his new book on the dangers of global warming, he's been running up an average electric bill of $1,100 a month
No real surprise and it's trivial compared to his constant fuel guzzling jet travel but it once again highlights the hypocrisy of the preachers of the worlds new religion and raises the question; do they really believe in what they're promoting or are they just using the rhetoric to manipulate the masses and increase their political power?
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-07, 06:23 PM   #68
Nicobie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,522
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albed View Post



preachers of the worlds new religion and raises the question; do they really believe in what they're promoting or are they just using the rhetoric to manipulate the masses and increase their political power?

Well, what do U think, more godshit?

Sounds like a religion to me...
__________________
May your tote always stay tight and your edge eversharp :wink:
Nicobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-07, 11:07 PM   #69
Drakonix
Just Draggin' Along
 
Drakonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,210
Default

Since global warming "concerns" are not based on science or fact, politically based motives is the most likely explanation. Specifically, tax the crap out of everything and take away freedom. Especially trash the second amendment so that the populace (once they find out they have been screwed) can not fight back as the founding documents authorize.
__________________
Copyright means the copy of the CD/DVD burned with no errors.

I will never spend a another dime on content that I can’t use the way I please. If I can’t copy it to my hard drive and play it using the devices I want, when and where I want, I won’t be buying it. Period. They can all take their DRM, broadcast flags, rootkits, and Compact Discs that aren’t really compact discs and shove them up their bottom-lines.
Drakonix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 07:35 AM   #70
Ramona_A_Stone
Formal Ball Proof
 
Ramona_A_Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,948
Default

Since global warming "denials" are also not based on science or fact, politically based motives is the most likely explanation. Specifically, protect the immediate profit potentials of exploitation and abuse of the environment, eschew new research and technologies to keep those profits maximized and properly funneled, accept your fate as a consumer, and let future generations piss up their own rope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakonix
Especially trash the second amendment so that the populace (once they find out they have been screwed) can not fight back as the founding documents authorize.
Jeez, and anyone who maintains our affect on the environment might be worth considering get called "alarmists."

Apropos of most of the rest of the world's stereotyping, Americans represent about 7% of the planet's population, reaping a full third of the resources consumed, producing 5 times the waste and seeming to give somewhat less than half a fuck. What we'd really like is another layer of brightly colored packaging on our fast food so our fat kids can throw it out the window of our hummers with pride.



But seriously, I don't believe these denials, based as they seem to be on nothing but a kind of misguided "anti-liberalism," actually deserve to be called "politically based motives" at all. In the big picture it's really just intellectual laziness, or a kind of mental tinnitus born of prolonged exposure to cognitive dissonance.

...well, dissonance at least.
Ramona_A_Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 09:43 AM   #71
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,231
Default

What greater cognitive dissonance can you have than the leading proponents of global warming based restrictions consuming resources and producing waste at a rate that dwarfs the average american's.


And what greater lack of cognition than the unquestioning acceptance of the hypocritical proclamations from those same people.
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 12:03 PM   #72
Ramona_A_Stone
Formal Ball Proof
 
Ramona_A_Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,948
Default

A perfect example: because Al Gore has a bigger electric bill than you, the concept of global warming and all concern for the environment is bunk. The 'logical' equivalent of trying to prove god doesn't exist based on the fact that Jimmy Swaggart cavorts with prostitutes.

Too bad being a good little Bushie makes it obvious that your disdain for hypocrites and their agendas is entirely selective or some people might be fooled into thinking you were making some kind of actual point.

And I don't see anyone in this thread exhibiting 'unquestioning acceptance' of global warming, but I guess if you can't win an argument on the merits of what you're actually arguing, you can always try making repetitive distracting noises.
Ramona_A_Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 05:41 PM   #73
Nicobie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,522
Default More knee jerks

Nuclear power generation is the cleanest that there is.

CNC is our only hope for transportation needs. It is total wasted for electricity power generation and we have plenty of it here for 20 years.

I find it disgusting that the tree huggers can not see thru their own scrim. I'd also like to bitch slap any that have more than one kid.

When it comes to walking the walk.....
Mine is on it's way. $1.25/gallon, 39 MPG. 'Phill' it up at home.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...lName=Civic+GX
__________________
May your tote always stay tight and your edge eversharp :wink:
Nicobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 06:04 PM   #74
Nicobie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,522
Default Haahahahahahhaahhahaaaaa

66666666666666666666666666

again!
__________________
May your tote always stay tight and your edge eversharp :wink:
Nicobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-07, 10:19 PM   #75
multi
Thanks for being with arse
 
multi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The other side of the world
Posts: 10,343
What The?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicobie View Post
Nuclear power generation is the cleanest that there is.
In the United States alone, the Department of Energy states that there are "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" as well as "thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material" and also "huge quantities of contaminated soil and water".

Despite these copious quantities of waste, the DOE has a goal of cleaning all presently contaminated sites successfully by 2025.The Fernald, Ohio site for example had "31 million pounds of uranium product", "2.5 billion pounds of waste", "2.75 million cubic yards of contaminated soil and debris", and a "223 acre portion of the underlying Great Miami Aquifer had uranium levels above drinking standards".

The United States currently has at least 108 sites it currently designates as areas that are contaminated and unusable, sometimes many thousands of acres. The DOE wishes to try and clean or mitigate many or all by 2025, however the task can be difficult & it acknowledges that some will never be completely remediated, and just in one of these 108 larger designations, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, there were for example at least "167 known contaminant release sites" in one of the three subdivisions of the 37,000 acre (150 km²) site.

Some of the U.S. sites were smaller in nature, however, and cleanup issues were simpler to address, and the DOE has successfully completed cleanup, or at least closure, of several sites.

The issue of disposal methods for nuclear waste was one of the most pressing current problems the valuable international nuclear industry faced when trying to establish a long term energy production plan, yet there was hope it could be safely solved. In the U.S., the DOE acknowledged much progress in addressing the waste problems of this vital and critical industry, and successful remediation of some contaminated sites, yet also major uncertainties & sometimes complications and setbacks in handling the issue properly, cost effectively, and in the projected time frame. In other countries with lower ability or will to maintain environmental integrity the issue would be more problematic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_waste

Spent nuclear fuel is currently planned for disposal in deep geological formations, such as Yucca Mountain, where it has to be shielded and packaged to prevent its migration to mankind's immediate environment for thousands if not millions of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_nuclear_fuel


come again?
__________________

i beat the internet
- the end boss is hard
multi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-07, 12:16 AM   #76
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone View Post
Specifically, protect the immediate profit potentials of exploitation and abuse of the environment, eschew new research and technologies to keep those profits maximized and properly funneled, accept your fate as a consumer, and let future generations piss up their own rope.
You say this like it's a bad thing.

I'm not gonna go into a "greed is good" rant here but it's known that economic prosperity and the health of the environment are linked and correlate directly. Industries are less abusive of the environment when their profit potentials are assured because then they can afford to conform to EPA standards. Many corporations even find it useful to spend their revenues in advertising to boast of their conservation practices (Shell Oil Company comes immediately to mind). To suggest that new green technologies actually threaten profitability is patent nonsense. If Wall Street had been made in this decade rather than the '80s Michael Douglas would have said "green is good, green is right, green works" and over the next few years we're going to see a lot of businesses stake their bottom lines on the public demand for products that make people feel like their doing their part to save the environment. But the truth is that the economic and industrial boom of the latter half of the last century has already saved the environment, at least here in North America. It is in the developing nations that lack the means to protect their environments where the real crisis is occurring.

The greatest threat to the environment is not greed, it is poverty. Solve global poverty, famine, homelessness, etcetera, and the global environment will recover almost immediately.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-07, 04:19 AM   #77
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone View Post
A perfect example: because Al Gore has a bigger electric bill than you, the concept of global warming and all concern for the environment is bunk. The 'logical' equivalent of trying to prove god doesn't exist based on the fact that Jimmy Swaggart cavorts with prostitutes.
It's actually an example that Al Gore doesn't really have the concern for the environment that he claims or he wouldn't be abusing it to such an extraordinary degree, just as Jimmy Swaggart doesn't really believe god exists or he wouldn't be provoking his wrath.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone View Post
And I don't see anyone in this thread exhibiting 'unquestioning acceptance' of global warming, but I guess if you can't win an argument on the merits of what you're actually arguing, you can always try making repetitive distracting noises.
Maybe you should try reading vernarial's posts in this thread as well as your own. Neither raises a single question about the validity of global warming and your own claim that global warming can cause global cooling clearly shows just how unquestioning you in particular are.
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-07, 05:44 PM   #78
Nicobie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,522
Default

Hey multi. nuke waste can be stuck in a fucking tin can, When it seems that maybe it might to start to leak [in 50 years.] stick it in another fucking tin can. Don't bury it next to a river and keep it where an eye can be kept on it.

Soon it will be harvested as fresh energy anyway.

It this so hard to figure out?




doG, some of you tree huggers are really DUMB asses
__________________
May your tote always stay tight and your edge eversharp :wink:
Nicobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-07, 07:19 PM   #79
multi
Thanks for being with arse
 
multi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The other side of the world
Posts: 10,343
Default

oh wow .. what a fucking genious you are NIc..
__________________

i beat the internet
- the end boss is hard
multi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-07, 09:36 PM   #80
Ramona_A_Stone
Formal Ball Proof
 
Ramona_A_Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albed
It's actually an example that Al Gore doesn't really have the concern for the environment that he claims or he wouldn't be abusing it to such an extraordinary degree, just as Jimmy Swaggart doesn't really believe god exists or he wouldn't be provoking his wrath.
Neither of those assertions are necessarily true at all in the real world of course, but if such baseless assumptions help you cling to your bias and dysfunctional version of reality, that's your perogative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by albed
...and your own claim that global warming can cause global cooling clearly shows just how unquestioning you in particular are.
That is not 'my claim,' it is a theory. (You really just can't help spinning everything can you?) I've not taken any position on its truth, but you can't seem to help yourself from insisting I have, apparently, because you don't have a scrap of information to refute it and yet are still determined to deny it for reasons unknown to anyone save that you are 'not convinced.'

For future reference and based on track record, please know that things which have or have not 'convinced albed' hold for me no redeemable value.

When you can prove that this theorem is not true you will have lived up to the rather unlikely position of supreme authority on matters of the future of the environment which you ridiculously project. Until that time you are so much derisive chatter, mocking the the entire concept of man's affect on the environment based solely on your misguided feeling of superiority to any and all individuals who have any true interest in it, lumping these together as a single 'mindless' entity in order to maintain that delsuion.

In fact when you, or Mazer or Drakonix or anyone else who maintains anthropogenic climate changes are "not supported by science" can produce one bit of scientific evidence that conclusively refutes it, (repeating variations of the phrase over and over doesn't count by the way), I will no longer assume we are merely listening to your preferred beliefs ad nauseum and at that time I will revisit the unlikely assertion that you've managed to transcend science and draw a valid conclusion from an inconclusive set of data and get back to you.

Meanwhile, if you really think the current quality and rate of increase of human industry can continue unchecked indefinitely without any environmental repercussions, I suggest you go sit in the garage with your car running for awhile and think about it some more.


Mazer, at last, the real villains are revealed!
Attached Images
 
Ramona_A_Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump






All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© www.p2p-zone.com - Napsterites - 2000 - 2024 (Contact grm1@iinet.net.au for all admin enquiries)