The Illegal Immigration thing

[albed]

You don't have to tell me I'm right, that's obvious; you have to tell theknife he's wrong. He just can't grasp that fact.

[malvachat]

Originally Posted by albed

You don't have to tell me I'm right, that's obvious; you have to tell theknife he's wrong. He just can't grasp that fact.

You tell him.
He's bigger than me.

[multi]

It's just his head that makes him look big.

[malvachat]

Originally Posted by multi

It's just his head that makes him look big.

I knew it wasn't his hair.

[ittybitty]

Originally Posted by albed

You should know you're not the only liberal propaganda parrot using the "master race" squawk. I'm sure you've heard it more times than you've squawked it.






If you want to play stupid then "illegals" is short for "illegal immigrants" and "doesn't speak English" doesn't mean "English is a second language" it means doesn't-speak-English comprende? Your claim that someone isn't saying what they're plainly saying is about as pathetic a response as I've seen from one of you slimy liberals and anyone who's followed media reports and studies of illegal immigration has seen exactly the points my quotee made. Your refusal to even attempt to contradict them would have marked you as a standard 'head-up-the-ass' liberal but claiming the quotee didn't even say what he said promotes you to laughing stock extraordinaire.

Your claim that since you live with an illegal you know about all of them is of course the usual expected idiocy.

i'm w/u

[theknife]

Originally Posted by ittybitty

i'm w/u

and i'm down with that amnesty thing too

[ittybitty]

Originally Posted by theknife

and i'm down with that amnesty thing too

2 many ams.......

[Mazer]

My mom passed this along to me. I don't know who wrote it.

Recently, large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests. Let's say I break into you house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the jobs you don't like to do. I'm hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."

According to the protesters:

You are required to let me stay in your house
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are required to educate my kids
You are required to provide other benefits to me and to my family

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be here.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard working and honest person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And what a deal it is for me!!

I live in your house, contributing nothing, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America!

[ittybitty]

Originally Posted by Mazer

My mom passed this along to me. I don't know who wrote it.

so u feel ok w/other people taking over yr country and home?

[theknife]

lot's of bitching and silly analogys in this thread - any solutions?

ok, here's mine:

1) seal the borders, north and south (as we should have done on 9/11 or before). use 150,000 troops or so from, oh, i don't know - iraq, or some other place where they are currently misdeployed.

2) after the borders are sealed, anybody that's in gets to stay. period. if you made it, you lucked out, you're in, but you're gonna be the last wave.

3) after the general amnesty, officers, owners, managers, and board members of companys caught employing illegals are absolutely criminally liable. period.

4) the minor children of amnesty recipients are eligible for free education and healthcare, the adults are not. the adults made the decisions to come for menial jobs and that's what they get. their kids get to grow up educated and healthy and go on to become the next generation's good citizens, as has been the case with every generation of immigrants before them.

let the flames begin

[albed]

We could just skip the analogies and go straight to the facts:

Illegal aliens are depressing wages.

Illegal aliens are burdening the welfare system.

Illegal aliens are burdening certain school systems.

Illegal aliens are burdening the justice system. (One murdered two americans in my area.)

Illegal aliens are burdening hospitals in certain areas.

Illegal aliens are degrading quality of life in many communities.



Solution: eliminate the factors that motivate them to come and stay illegally in the U.S.; unlawful employment opportunities, various welfare benefits, automatic citizenship for children born here that give them a legal claim to stay and scumbag politicians that subvert the laws of the United States for their own political gain.

[Mazer]

No flames knife, you're on the right track but you're missing the point.

Citizen immigrants are the primary source of American patriotism because they are Americans by choice and they pass that enthusiasm on to their children. The problem isn't that people are sneaking into America, it's the attitude they're bringing with them. Illegal immigrants don't come here for citizenship, they don't necessarily want to be put on a path towards citizenship and giving them amnesty does nothing to make them want to assimilate. All they really want is to be able to stay here where the money is, so to them amnesty is just a form of political asylum or sanctuary. I have a big problem with that attitude and so do most Americans.

Illegals represent a threat to our sovereignty on a fundamental level. We're a nation of laws and we're united because we abide by those laws. Our law states that only citizens can stay here permanently and only citizens can vote, and illegals seek to break both those laws. If we allow that then are we still a nation of laws? No, not really. We're importing a new kind of racism, we're giving rise to a group of people to whom citizenship means nothing and yet they feel entitled to all the benefits citizenship grants. They call themselves La Raza, they feel they transcend all borders, and when they run afoul of the law they head down south where law enforcement can't reach them. They have about as much respect for our sovereignty as drug smugglers and terrorist groups.

So here's my take on your plan: Seal the borders? Absolutely. Anybody who is already here gets to stay? Change that to "anybody who is already here must stay" and I'd agree; the border should be sealed in both directions to prevent fugitives from escaping. Prosecute employers of illegal immigrants? Yes. Free health care and education for minor children of illegals? Only if they are taught in English (absolutely no bilingual classes) and they learn all about American history; just because they didn't choose to come here doesn't mean they shouldn't have to assimilate into our culture. These four things are inadequate though. Like albed says we need to remove the incentives for illegal immigration.

[vernarial]

Here is a funny little e-mail I got a few years ago. It was done in jest, but also makes some good points.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love America

I come for visit, get treated regal,
So I stay, who care I illegal?
I cross border, poor and broke,
Take bus, see employment folk.

Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need to see welfare.
Welfare say "you come no more,
We send cash right to your door."

Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medical, it keep you healthy!
By and by, I got plenty money,
Thanks to you---American dummy.

Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them come as fast as you can.
They come in rags and Chevy trucks,
I buy big house with welfare bucks.

They come, we live together,
More welfare cash, it gets better!
Fourteen families now move in,
But neighbors patience growing thin.

Finally, white guy moves away,
Now I buy his house and then I say.
Find more aliens for house to rent,
And in the yard I put a tent.

Send for family (they just trash),
But they too draw welfare cash!
Everything is mucho good,
Soon we own the neighborhood.

We have hobby---its called breeding,
Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife needs pills?
We get free! We got no bills!

America is crazy, he pay all year
To keep welfare running here.
We think America damn good place!
Too damn good for the white-man race.

If they no like us, they can go,
Got lots of room in Cuba, Haiti & Mexico

"Boy, I love America."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seriously this is what I think....

One point that upsets me is the fact that these illegal aliens are just that. Illegal. If I (or any reasonable person in my opinion) wished to immigrate to another country, I could guarantee that my first act when coming to the new country would not be to break the law. It seems to me like everyone is just talking about letting them off. OK, I agree that the laws need to be changed. But it is still the law.

I kinda like the guest worker visa idea. Maybe we could set up special border crossing points and have people there giving half hour orientations called "Welcome to the USA, land of opportunity.(if you are among the wealthy 5%)
Seriously, just give 'em a quick "Hi, how are ya? I'm Vern, who are you? Staying long?" Give them a guest worker visa and let 'em have at it. At least then they aren't here illegally. Have the visa be for X number of years and then the gotta apply for citizenship if they wanna stay.

They are gonna keep coming. We need to adjust our current laws so it is more like we are welcoming them and trying to help them intigrate rather than criminalise them. Those of the illegal ones that are already here should have to pay some small fine for breaking the law and then we can help them get back in good standing.

My conspiracy theory is that eventually our domestic and multi national corporations will keep sending jobs to Mexico and Latin America and Asia because us lazy overpaid USA workers want too much and eventaully all the jobs will be in other countries and our government will become a military dictatorship and we will be crossing the borders trying to find a better life for our families. I just hope they treat us better than we have treated immigrants throughout the history of the USA.
I don't differentiate a human by the place they were born. They all have equal value in my eyes. Living in this new global world I don't believe borders mean that much and we should treat people from other countries as we would people living in our own.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by vernarial

They are gonna keep coming. We need to adjust our current laws so it is more like we are welcoming them and trying to help them intigrate rather than criminalise them.

See, I think it should be just the opposite. For those immigrants who want to come here legally and contribute to society, America should be open and welcoming. But for those who don't care to do things our way, they should be made to feel like they're breaking into prison when they hop the border, they ought to feel stupid for even trying. Legal immigration should be so appealing and illegal immigration so unappealing that nobody would even think about breaking our immigration laws.

[vernarial]

Thats what I'm talking about in that quote. Making it so easy and appealing to be a legal immigrant. Sure, illegals need to pay a price for their crime. But it needs to be reasonable. The punishment needs to fit the crime, and if the laws are made so that it would be easier to come here and be a citizen and pay the same and serve the same as everyone else, then why would anyone want to be here illegally. Help them learn english and help intigrate them into useful productive citizens.
I don't know. If I had the perfect answer, maybe I would be head of Homeland Security. I'm just not usually for taking the hard line with people. Wanna be friends with everyone.

[theknife]

stop the illegal wave and the rest will sort it self out. American culture is robust and elastic and will absorb those who are already here. bilingual services are no threat to my culture, nor are legal non-citizen residents any threat to sovereignty - the US admits between 600,000 and 1,000,000 of them every year. they pay taxes, they work, they come, they go, some become citizens, some do not - so what?

the La Raza thing is a nice touch of hysteria, btw - represents, at best, a infinitesimal percentage of the Latin community...about as much a threat as, say, La Cosa Nostra or the Asian Tongs.

[Mazer]

You're inferring things I never implied, knife. Resident aliens are just fine with me as long as they remain in good standing with the law. They aren't the subject of dispute right now; nobody is suggesting we change the status of current visa and green card holders. I have been careful to keep my comments focused on illegal aliens only, so please stop trying to change the subject.

So you're comparing the concept of La Raza to criminal organizations? It's a cultural mindset, not a group of people. Unlike other strains of multiculturalism this one has no respect for our borders nor our electoral process, and now it's beginning to take form as a political movement. If, by allowing foreign nationals to stay here illegally, we allow foreign interests to influence our government then, yes, it is a threat to our sovereignty.

[albed]

To theknife you're actually not making a single point about illegal immigration - you're making a lot of noise about welfare and people for whom English is a second language and legal immigrants.


It's a mark on how determined some people are to cling to their beliefs that they refuse to even acknowledge any facts that might counter them no matter how obvious they are.

[theknife]

you're just not paying attention, but i'll try once more - stop the wave of illegals by sealing the borders. the country will absorb the ones who are here, into the economy (immediately), and the culture (ultimately). in the end, thier grandkids will look like yours, only thier's will probably be a lot nicer.

[albed]

But why should we stop the wave of illegals? You're not suggesting they're bad for the country are you? And if they are why shouldn't we send them back?