did Karl Rove commit treason?

[albed]

So what does that have to do with "did Karl Rove commit treason?" floydian?


Start your own thread for your stupid bullshit so people will know to ignore it.

[floydian slip]

ummm... where it says...

Besides the Valerie Plame CIA leak case, the Fitzgerald probe is reportedly far-reaching and expanding much deeper

maybe try opening your eyes

i know its hard for sme people, just try it next time, im here for you

[theknife]

a typical day for Scott McClellan

[theknife]

as the Plame Grand jury winds down, Washington is just bursting with rumors about the outcome. here's a fun one from Radar Magazine:

The D.C. Rumor mill is thrumming with whispers that 22 indictments are about to be handed down on the outed-CIA agent Valerie Plame case. The last time the wires buzzed this loud — that Tom DeLay would be indicted and would step down from his leadership post in the House — the scuttlebutters got it right.

Can it be a coincidence that the White House appears to be distancing President Bush from embattled aide Karl Rove? “He’s been missing in action at more than one major presidential event,” a member of the White House press corps tells us.

If the word on the street is right a second time, we have a bit of advice for Rove: Go with vertical stripes, they’re way more slimming.

22 indictments would just about clear the decks in the White House Executive Wing

[floydian slip]

"Near the end of a round table discussion on ABC’s This Week, George Stephanopoulos dropped this bomb:

Definitely a political problem but I wonder, George Will, do you think it’s a manageable one for the White House especially if we don’t know whether Fitzgerald is going to write a report or have indictments but if he is able to show as a source close to this told me this week, that President Bush and Vice President Cheney were actually involved in some of these discussions.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/10/02.html#a5192

[Drakonix]

In January 1985, New York State Chief Judge Sol Wachtler said:

District attorneys now have so much influence on grand juries that “by and large” they could get them to “indict a ham sandwich.”

Remember, an indictment and a conviction are two things very far apart.

"too stupid to be president.com"?
"crooks and liars.com"?
An article from "Radar Magazine.com" that begins "The D.C. rumor mill"?

If the guys did wrong, they should be punished. However, this "campaign of righteousness" has a glaringly obvious political slant.

Edit: Oops, forgot source reference
Source article appeared in the New York Daily News Page 3 on January 31, 1985
Article quoted at URL http://www.barrypopik.com/article/84...a-ham-sandwich

[theknife]

ham sandwiches don't start wars for no apparent reason.

Evidence is building that the probe conducted by Patrick Fitzgerald, special prosecutor, has extended beyond the leaking of a covert CIA agent's name to include questioning about the administration's handling of pre-Iraq war intelligence.

... and not a minute too soon for this line of inquiry.

Frank Rich, NY Times Select (reg required but full article mirrored here)

Now, as always, what matters most in this case is not whether Mr. Rove and Lewis Libby engaged in a petty conspiracy to seek revenge on a whistle-blower, Joseph Wilson, by unmasking his wife, Valerie, a covert C.I.A. officer. What makes Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation compelling, whatever its outcome, is its illumination of a conspiracy that was not at all petty: the one that took us on false premises into a reckless and wasteful war in Iraq. That conspiracy was instigated by Mr. Rove's boss, George W. Bush, and Mr. Libby's boss, Dick Cheney.

so you can do the hokey pokey and you can turn yourself about, but ^that^ is what it's really all about.

[albed]

Originally Posted by theknife

... and not a minute too soon for this line of inquiry.

Yes indeed, just as the original one is turning out to be a waste of time.

Kind of like your propaganda efforts knife. When one fizzles just start another.

They could go on forever like this, just switching from accusation to accusation. I'm sure you could too.

That is if neither of you catches on to how petty and vindictive you're beginning to look to the public.

[Nicobie]

Did anybody vote for K Rowie?

I for one, couldn't care less.

[theknife]

as if the rumor mill could possibly take any more pressure, this speculation from US News & World Report:

Sparked by today's Washington Post story that suggests Vice President Cheney's office is involved in the Plame-CIA spy link investigation, government officials and advisers passed around rumors that the vice president might step aside and that President Bush would elevate Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

"It's certainly an interesting but I still think highly doubtful scenario," said a Bush insider. "And if that should happen," added the official, "there will undoubtedly be those who believe the whole thing was orchestrated – another brilliant Machiavellian move by the VP."

not a bad move for Cheney, if true - bail out on the bleak future of the Bush administration and go home to his ranch in Wyoming. why wait in DC for his next heart attack? stuff like this, from the NY Daily News, can't possibly be helping his blood pressure:

Cheney's name has come up amid indications Fitzgerald may be edging closer to a blockbuster conspiracy charge - with help from a secret snitch.

"They have got a senior cooperating witness - someone who is giving them all of that," a source who has been questioned in the leak probe told the Daily News yesterday.

hmm - who flipped? my money would be on Scott McClellan's predecessor, Ari Fleischer, who bailed out long ago but yet not quite in time. if it's Ari, he could pat himself on the back for pulling a rabbit out of his hat - he may have avoided jail and the brutal daily grilling that Scott receives at the hands of the White House press corps. hard to say which is worse.

[theknife]

the GOP has developed a new talking point in response to the burgeoning Plame investigation - "the criminalization of politics". this new meme has been mentioned some 30 times in the past few weeks, but only in one place: you guessed it - Fox News (surprise!). see the birth of a talking point here.

meanwhile, apparently the insider who has flipped is John Hannah, a senior national security aide on loan to Vice President Dick Cheney from the offices of then-Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs John Bolton. according to MSNBC, via the Carpetbagger Report:

Hannah was a "principal point of contact" for (dubious) intelligence generated by the controversial Iraqi National Congress before the U.S. invasion began. In other words, when the White House needed "proof" about Iraqi WMD and connections to terrorism, it relied on defectors' bogus claims — which were given directly to Hannah — to make the case that the war was necessary.

[theknife]

Hardball's Chris Matthews gets it:

If there are indictments, they're going to be probably in the vice president's office, they're probably going to come next week and they are going to blow this White House apart.

It's going to be unbelievable.

I think the people watching right now who are voters better start paying attention to this issue. It's not just about whether somebody's name was leaked, it's about whether we went to war under false pretenses or not, whether people knew about that or not, and what they did when they were charged against that kind of offense against the United States.

It's serious business.

[theknife]

almost anti-climactic, when the other shoe finally dropped today...Rove lives to see another day, Libby does not. 5 counts for him - 2 for perjury, 1 obstruction of justice, 2 for making false statements. interesting the way it played out, with Fitzgerald apprently unable to make the case for disclosing Valerie Plame's identity due to Libby's perjury/obstruction. but i was listening to his press conference today and my impression from his comments was that Libby's testimony was so blatantly contradicted by other accounts that prosecutors felt it would be remiss not to charge him. it's always the cover-up that gets 'em - you'd think they would know better by now.

[albed]

I take it you didn't shoot a gooey mess into your shorts then.


Damn that Rove...gets you all worked up and then walks away.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by albed

Damn that Rove...gets you all worked up and then walks away.

not quite.

Rove's lawyer said he was told by special prosecutor Fitzgerald's office that investigators would continue their probe into the aide's conduct.

patience, grasshopper - this is just beginning.

[Repo]

Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby was indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements in the investigation of the C.I.A. leak of the identity of a covert CIA operative. Now many Republicans stress the fact that he was not charged with leaking the CIA operative's identity. This may be true but he was charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements to FBI agents and the grand jury. If someone discounts the seriousness of the allegations then one must assume that they have a personal reason to discount them and the rule of law. Scooter's problems all come back to the fact that Scooter his boss Dick Cheney and George W. Bush mislead the country into going to the war in Iraq. They, as the British say, 'sexed up' the reasons to go to war and tried to quiet critics including outing a CIA agent to get back at her husband for publicly noting facts the Bush Administration were using were knowingly bogus. Scooter and possibly others in the Bush Administration went after the CIA agent's husband and in doing so revealed her identity. Doing so is a crime; however proving it is almost impossible but just because it cannot be proven does not mean it did not happen. Where there is smoke there is fire and a lot of smoke is coming from the Oval Office...

Many Republicans are hitting the talk shows making the point that Scooter is charged with basically talking to reporters, that he was not charged with leaking the CIA agent's name. These Republicans have a reason for trying to downgrade the crimes committed and that is because they too mislead and lied to the American people about why the country was going to war. They too used the faulty information and they too may have known that it was bogus at the time. As Scooter goes to trial, so do all the Republicans that backed Bush and Cheney on the war while at the time attacking all those against the war as unpatriotic. Every Republican that goes on to downplay the charges against Libby should be considered part of the conspiracy to take America to war based on the lies and deceit of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby. They have dragged America into a long war that everyone now knows could have been avoided. Since it is not a crime to lie to the American public look for the Bush Administration to keep lying until each member of Bush's staff has to face the grand jury or be called upon as a witness in Scooter's trial. The only time the Bush Administration tells the truth is when they face a grand jury and Scooter couldn't even tell the truth then...

Scooter covered up his trail of slander against the CIA agent and her husband and in doing so broke the law. The question remains if Bush and Cheney knew what Scooter was doing and if so when did they know it? When the time comes to abide by the rule of law will the Republican Congress impeach a president and his vice president that sent American soldiers off to die in a war that was nothing more than a boondoggle? Don't count on it; the Republican Congress cares little of the rule of law and only of their own power and stock portfolios. The rule of law is only something Republicans apply to Democratic presidents...

The Bush Administration and the current Congress are the most corrupt in the history of the nation and should be thrown out like yesterday's office coffee. Both leave a bad taste in your mouth and the longer it sits in office, the more bitter it is and the worse it gets....

[daddydirt]

Bush Derangement Syndrome: the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush.

-Charles Krauthammer

[albed]

Are you suggesting Repo is or was normal?


I think the liberals always were warped and weak minded but they've only lately been inspired to trumpet it to the world.


It's particularly laughable how they squawk their outrage about lying when they're whole idealogy is based on lies.

The Bush Administration and the current Congress are the most corrupt in the history of the nation

and ignorance...or maybe it's lying....nah, Repo isn't bright enough to know something like history.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by daddydirt

Bush Derangement Syndrome: the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush.

-Charles Krauthammer

since the prez only appears in carefully scripted stage events and manufactured photo opportunites, with fake props and prepped, prescreened audiences, one could conclude George W. Bush really doesn't exist at all - he's just a production of the GOP's rather stale imagination. the fun part is that, as the Bush administration continues to rack up failure after specatacular failure, apologists like Krauthammer are left sitting further and further out on a very flimsy limb.

Originally Posted by Repo

Scooter covered up his trail of slander against the CIA agent and her husband and in doing so broke the law. The question remains if Bush and Cheney knew what Scooter was doing and if so when did they know it? When the time comes to abide by the rule of law will the Republican Congress impeach a president and his vice president that sent American soldiers off to die in a war that was nothing more than a boondoggle?

as this indictment continues to get parsed, it's apparent that Cheney not only knew about the campaign to smear Wilson - he instigated it:

On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Divison. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA - pg 5 of the Libby indictment

now, there's no crime in 2 government officials with security clearance discussing this....until the subordinate of the two spends the next week calling reporters to relay this classified info. not for nothing is Libby referred to as "Cheney's Cheney".

Fitzgerald was pretty clear in his press conference - the indictments stopped with Libby only because Libby's obfuscation of the facts made further determination of criminal liability impossible:

"And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice, the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He's trying to figure what happened and somebody blocked their view. As you sit here now, if you're asking me what his motives were, I can't tell you; we haven't charged it. So what you were saying is the harm in an obstruction investigation is it prevents us from making the fine judgments we want to make."- Fitzgerald press conference, 10/28/05.

when the weight of a multi-million dollar legal bill and the prospect of serious jail time begin bear down on Libby, Cheney might want to start worrying about his memory making a dramatic improvement. none of this could have happened without Cheney's ok.

[floydian slip]

Originally Posted by theknife

not quite.
patience, grasshopper - this is just beginning.

indeed it is...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101494_pf.html

Rove remains a focus of the CIA leak probe. He has told friends it is possible he still will be indicted for providing false statements to the grand jury.

McClellan, who famously told reporters and the public in 2003 that Libby and Rove had assured him they had no roles in the leak, also defended his own credibility.