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Old 14-05-04, 12:52 AM   #41
tambourine-man
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I figure 2, 3 and 4 were sequential. At another point (day after?? change of battery???), they record Berg again (picture 1). Then, between '13:26' and '13:45' they kill him off-camera, then decapitate his corpse for gruesome effect in picture 5. I don't think you realise quite how much blood would shoot out if this were a live execution - we're talking a ridiculous amount for the fist 7 or 8 seconds. Sadly, this is not Hollywood-logic... when a main artery is cut, the blood loss is immense. Irrespective of what direction it would go, I'm stating that the pressure the blood would have been under would cause it to spay indiscriminately... hence, I reckon the poor guy had probably already passed away. The timecodes then become a little erratic, losing 5 seconds here and there. After recording, the sound is dubbed - no question that it's dubbed. Either way, pretty despicable.
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Old 14-05-04, 01:20 AM   #42
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By the times on those shots, to me...it looks like this was recorded over a much larger period of time. The first shot of him in the chair says 13:26...(1:26pm), the time in between that shot and the actual murder shows between 2:10 and 2:45. If i was to guess, i would guess that between 0200 and 0300 they recorded the speech with him sitting on the ground, but the rest of the video...him telling about his family and the actual decapitation didnt happen until roughly 10 hours later. I also believe that he was already dead (maybe 30 min prior) when they recorded the video where they 'killed' him...there just should have been a lot more blood, and a lot more twitching from the body.

The gold ring on the man with the papers, the constant turning and shuffling of the papers, the obvious nervousness of the man on the far right hand side of the video, and the fact that their skin (hands) look just as dark (if not a bit whiter) as Berg's taned face makes me wonder if these were really muslim extremeists...

I have no doubt that all video shots are real, but its a bit of a stretch for me to believe that the events occoured in the presented sequence
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Old 14-05-04, 01:48 AM   #43
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Funny, I couldn't see the gold ring... as for the skin tones, I never trust digi-cams.
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Old 14-05-04, 02:41 AM   #44
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huge thread squid !

lol@moscowned

i think this quote pretty much summed it up for me on whether it was faked or not:

Why kill the guy before "killing" him? It just adds risk and one more thing that could go wrong and expose the conspiracy. If you're gonna kill a guy, why do it more than once?

thanks for the link..

edit :after reading your post gutr, i think that seems to make some sense..
the beheading added to the death for shock value..maybe?
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Old 14-05-04, 04:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by multi
huge thread squid !

lol@moscowned

i think this quote pretty much summed it up for me on whether it was faked or not:

Why kill the guy before "killing" him? It just adds risk and one more thing that could go wrong and expose the conspiracy. If you're gonna kill a guy, why do it more than once?

thanks for the link..

edit :after reading your post gutr, i think that seems to make some sense..
the beheading added to the death for shock value..maybe?
If i was to guess, i would say they killed him first, then recorded the decapitation to make it look easy...

If that was me, as soon as i knew what was going on , i would fight for my life...squirming, kicking, biting...spitting in their faces...anyting..even tho i would be likely to die anyway, i couldnt just sit there and take it. If he was already dead, he wouldnt put up much of a fight...

Shock value is another great reason, if you look up at Ramona's post, it makes sense (to me anyway) to have done it like that.
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Old 14-05-04, 07:02 AM   #46
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the video is definitely not fake. the murderers first read some bullshit in arabic. a few hours later, according to the time display on the video, they announce his "sentence" and proceed to behead him. there are several versions of this video available on the net. the one on ogrish.com is more clear and it's obvious the camera is showing the real beheading. there may be some difficulty seeing all the blood at first because the blanket they put him on is dark red/brown. but in the last few moments of the tape when they zoom in on the head and the body it's clear there's a pool of blood there. the quality of the original is indeed shit. some flaws are from the original recording plus additional quality was probably lost when the tape was transferred and edited to the internet.

one noteworthy discrepancy is the date the video was recorded. the murderers claim the beheading was done on may 11, which is not true because the headless body of nick berg was found by american troops last weekend.
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Old 14-05-04, 07:08 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by tambourine-man
I don't think you realise quite how much blood would shoot out if this were a live execution - we're talking a ridiculous amount for the fist 7 or 8 seconds. Sadly, this is not Hollywood-logic... when a main artery is cut, the blood loss is immense. Irrespective of what direction it would go, I'm stating that the pressure the blood would have been under would cause it to spay indiscriminately... hence, I reckon the poor guy had probably already passed away.
Can't get anything from ogrish.com right now but the old video of Chechens cutting some Russian soldiers throat showed the blood just gushing out onto the ground. I've never seen blood "spray" except in Hollywood stuff. Even quick decapitations just have blood spurting a few inches at most.

I don't see how anyone could see blood with that video's quality anyway. I watched with wmp6.4 and bsplayer and couldn't make out anything but a few slightly reddish pixels.

As for technical details; I originally thought the screaming was from an Arab working himself into a frenzy but I guess it was Berg with the muxing really screwed up. Can't really say if they're just stupid or hiding something.
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Old 14-05-04, 11:06 AM   #48
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I have absolutely no personal experience beheading people, I don't know if anyone here has? So I don't really know what is suppose to really happen.

It seems the terrorist would fail has hollywood directors...is that something fair to say? Shity camerawork and bad editing are only leading to speculation. I think some see this video and compare it to a hollywood picture or maybe their favorite video game and think the video is fake.

but....

Why is there an American, who is pro-war, and jewish wandering freely in iraq? If he was an embedded reporter I could understand, but to goto Iraq as a civilian contractor, after fallugah, seems very misguided.


Nick Berg is turning into 1984's version of Lee Harvey Oswald.
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Old 14-05-04, 12:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sinner
Why is there an American, who is pro-war, and jewish wandering freely in iraq? If he was an embedded reporter I could understand, but to goto Iraq as a civilian contractor, after fallugah, seems very misguided.
i saw a report yesterday on CNN that says there are hundreds of american and european civilian contractors in iraq.
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Old 14-05-04, 04:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
originally posted by malvachat
FAKE
The next question is who faked it them or us?
I haven't watched the video and I'm not a forensic expert, but your question points up that even if the execution of Mr. Berg is quite real, it wouldn't necessarily preclude this being a work of fiction.

One possible heuristic might be to ask who would really have more to gain from the perfect timing and the unequivocally predictable reactions produced? Perhaps it's a toss-up between the self-destructing incarnation of a radical Islamic death wish and our own Department of Offense... err, Defense... who just happens to be cinching the deal for 25B more dollars, but it does seem remarkable that some avid Bushophiles can barely suppress their glee at the arrival of such a document with its magical resuscitative effect upon a war effort gasping and wheezing at the reports from Abu Ghraib.

Another interesting question is if Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is bold enough to take credit for this act, why is he so reticent to reveal his identifiable visage and remove all doubt? In an age where terrorist cells sometimes haggle over claiming responsibility for any circumstantial disaster and where any five anonymous guys with a video camera and a Malaysian web site can hit such a demographic jackpot, you'd think he'd be a little more meticulous about signing his work, but who knows.

One thing's fairly clear though, this seems to have proven a better design to draw us in than to ward us off. If the architects of Mr. Berg's decapitation were truly seeking to dissuade Americans from their prized 'war on terror' and specifically our seige of Iraq, they've definitely achieved the opposite, and it seems they'd have to be incredibly dense not to have realized such would be the case. I'm not going to argue that these are intellectuals, but surely they're cognizant of human nature to some extent.

Mind you, I'm not drawing any conclusions, just asking questions and acknowledging the margin of indeterminacy.

Quote:
originally posted by Mazer
What is it they're selling?
Maybe you can tell me what they're selling, as an enthusiastic consumer of the war on terror you would seem to have more authority on that subject than I. Personally, whether it's the righteous indignation to make the Islamic world a parking lot or a justification for the vast waste of time, energy, money and lives with which we've made this futile bonfire in pursuit of these microbial organisms, I'm not buying any.

Quote:
originally posted by Sinner
Well it seems to me Liberals want to blame anybody but the Killers.
Frankly, I'd much rather believe that the're exactly who they say they are and tuck them into a nice snug bed of blame with hospital corners, but part of the problem is that radicals such as yourself masquerading as 'conservatives' have been so busy for the last three years defending the almost omniscient infallibility of their intrepid leader and attempting to foil and discredit the slightest quibble with such rapacious zeal that such little red flags of skepticism begin to feel more and more like sober objectivity with each passing day.
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Old 14-05-04, 06:48 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
They don't give a fuck about content, they're just in it to sell the advertising time.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mazer
Advertizing time? What is it they're selling?
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Maybe you can tell me what they're selling,...
Come on Ramona; Mazer already believes your mindless rants refer to something so give him the courtesy of a reply.
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Old 14-05-04, 08:14 PM   #52
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you know that Nick Berg was Jewish right?

Sure smook, I bet you think that hitler comissioned the hit too.

People like u are not helping world peace at all.
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Old 14-05-04, 09:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by schmooky007


one noteworthy discrepancy is the date the video was recorded. the murderers claim the beheading was done on may 11, which is not true because the headless body of nick berg was found by american troops last weekend.

did they get the head back?
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Old 15-05-04, 12:22 AM   #54
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Unlike you albed, Mazer has the ability to read a post without picking out a few phrases and pretending they're incomprehensible to try and cover the fact that he has nothing whatsoever to say. Also unlike you, I think he's perceptive enough to grasp elementary concepts... perhaps if you'd try reading entire sentences, you might eventually grasp them too, and then maybe you could graduate from your shtick of being a human speed bump.
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Old 15-05-04, 12:52 AM   #55
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Hello
It comes down to this as I see it.
WE The People of Earth want the same things.
Love, Food, Knowledge and a Safe place to sleep.
This can be done. I have faith in humanity.
This too shall pass. Rage will succumb to Pacifism
The Arts WILL prevail again.
Turn off the media
Take a breath
Turn a page
Smoke a joint
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Old 15-05-04, 07:47 AM   #56
multi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turnstile To One
Hello
It comes down to this as I see it.
WE The People of Earth want the same things.
Love, Food, Knowledge and a Safe place to sleep.
This can be done. I have faith in humanity.
This too shall pass. Rage will succumb to Pacifism
The Arts WILL prevail again.
Turn off the media
Take a breath
Turn a page
Smoke a joint

or a cone !
good to hear from you tto!
thanks for sharing that

always checking the media..
cant help it..
i am obsessed
i admit it..

meanwhile at Gross'mout Union High School:
Quote:
Local parents are outraged that students from two high schools allegedly watched or listened to the graphic beheading of an American in Iraq while in class under the supervision of teachers.
more..
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Old 15-05-04, 08:17 AM   #57
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do not adjust the horizontal, do not adjust the vertical...

and in similar news...a teacher whose students wished to learn has been suspended for providing a link to the images. not showing them, just showing them where.



- js.
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Old 15-05-04, 12:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Unlike you albed, Mazer has the ability to read a post without picking out a few phrases and pretending they're incomprehensible to try and cover the fact that he has nothing whatsoever to say. Also unlike you, I think he's perceptive enough to grasp elementary concepts... perhaps if you'd try reading entire sentences, you might eventually grasp them too, and then maybe you could graduate from your shtick of being a human speed bump.
Whoaa...you're going be left hanging on your question Mazer. I knew Ramona was just blabbering but I thought he might spin an entertaining answer to try to hide it.

Guess he's not in the mood.
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Old 15-05-04, 04:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Unlike you albed, Mazer has the ability to read a post without picking out a few phrases and pretending they're incomprehensible to try and cover the fact that he has nothing whatsoever to say. Also unlike you, I think he's perceptive enough to grasp elementary concepts... perhaps if you'd try reading entire sentences, you might eventually grasp them too, and then maybe you could graduate from your shtick of being a human speed bump.
Unlike you SAO, the rest of us have the infinite ability to comprehend that most of your phrases are bullshit and full of rhetorical nonsense. Also unlike you we are secure enough with our educatiors as to not require a Thesaurus and Dictionary to find huge 4 syllable words to replace the usual 1 and 2 syllable words LITERATE people use to explain ELEMENTARY concepts.

Perhaps if you'd cease and desist with the feeble and futile attempts at impressing people, your insecurity and illiteracy would no longer be the focus of our attention and then maybe we could graduate from the belief that you are nothing more than a sperm receptacle who's only ability to grasp anything is with his lips.

As for the rest of you medical geniuses who think that there wasn't enough blood or it didn't spray all over the damn walls should realize that a blood pressure of 100 over 80 isn't measured in P.S.I.

The pressure in a humans circulatory system is very LOW. Hence the term "high" blood pressure being bad for us. Those of you who think severing the Jugular vein or Carotid artery results in a spectacular "spray" of blood that would get all over you and the surrounding walls are watching too much TV.

The human body has only about 5 liters or 6 to 7 pints of blood to start with. Pressure is lost instantly upon severing the Jugular or Carotid with the blood being expelled by the pumping of a "LIVE" heart that could cease pumping in less than 60 seconds if the artery or vein isn't clamped off to restore "pressure".

Contrary to popular belief a human heart won't continue to pump until the body is completely drained of blood. A person can bleed to death and suffer heart failure with only a few pints of its entire blood volume lost. The remaining blood volume stays in the body and will only exit after death if forcibly drained. Hence the morticians job.

The ONLY time you may get a spraying effect is when the Jugular/Carotid is nicked and the circulatory system is able to maintain "Blood Pressure". When the heart beats the pressure would cause a spurt or spray to erupt from the damaged vein or artery.

I have no desire to watch the video nor do I wish to join the "is it live? or is it Memorex?" club. All I know is that some of your beliefs about the human body were obviously learned on video games and cable TV and not in grade school biology.

If this guy was dead before they decapitated him, there would be very little blood loss. If there was a "puddle" of blood that formed as some claim, then the mans heart was beating as they decapitated him.
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Old 15-05-04, 11:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by albed
Whoaa...you're going be left hanging on your question Mazer. I knew Ramona was just blabbering but I thought he might spin an entertaining answer to try to hide it.

Guess he's not in the mood.
Um, thanks for looking out for me, I guess.

You and I have played the dueling keyboards a few times, but it's a tired tune and somewhat aggravating. Ramona and I argue too, but at least when we do I get the sense that we're getting through to each other and what I take from those exchanges is a greater respect for my opponent.

Jcmd, your an intelligent guy, I know you understand every word Ramona uses without having to look those words up. I also know he doesn't need a thesarus, he has more word power than most people I've met combined, and how you can call such a person illiterate is beyond me. Some of us were good at English, you were obviously good at Biology; thanks for the clarification on the subject.
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