What would you ask the Prez tonight?

[theknife]

Originally posted by AweShucks
I realize that However if you would like to explain what else had caused the big explosion I might listen for awhile The plane was probably between frames?

i'm not a conspiracy buff and i don't know what else might have caused the explosion....but if the time stamp is right on the above two pictures and they were taken within the same second, as the time stamp indicates, where's the plane?

[tambourine-man]

Can you spell 'defeat'?

Oooh, I'll give you a hint, I'm not talking about the things you use to walk.

Cheapshot.

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by theknife
i'm not a conspiracy buff and i don't know what else might have caused the explosion....but if the time stamp is right on the above two pictures and they were taken within the same second, as the time stamp indicates, where's the plane?

Right here! LOL Does it matter they found debris and there was witnesses that saw the damn thing. I just supplied the photo of impact

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by theknife
i'm not a conspiracy buff and i don't know what else might have caused the explosion....but if the time stamp is right on the above two pictures and they were taken within the same second, as the time stamp indicates, where's the plane?

My math is bad but If I figure the plane was moving at 400mph which is well within the planes speed capability. Figure the plane was moving at 586 fps the picture shows at best guess 200 feet to the right of the Pentagon at impact point. So it could very well have gotten between frames as it would have taken about a third of a second to close 200 ft. but without knowing the film speed we'll never know?

[miss_silver]

Originally posted by AweShucks
My math is bad but If I figure the plane was moving at 400mph which is well within the planes speed capability. Figure the plane was moving at 586 fps the picture shows at best guess 200 feet to the right of the Pentagon at impact point. So it could very well have gotten between frames as it would have taken about a third of a second to close 200 ft. but without knowing the film speed we'll never know?

Nah, wouldn't say your math is bad.

But even though the plane was flying at a speed of 400mph (close to a Concorde in speed) Pretty sure it was flying at less speed but I have to say that for pentagon, their security camera who "caugh, caugh" caught the plane "on tape" sucked greatly. Amateur vids were better at catching the second plane hitting WTC!

It truly makes me wonder that a 300$ camcorder can do a better job at filming a plane hitting wtc than the Pentagon security cam did. Even supermarkets in my neighbourhood have better cams than those of the pentagone, never seen such a bad recording

Would be nice to know who found any plane debries after the explosion... Also, if memory serves me well, wasn't there only a few ppl in the wing that the "caugh" plane hit. Man, all that caughing, must be getting a cold

Never was much into conspiracy theory but the lack of proof about the pentagone crash and also, to butter it up a little bit more, that conversation Between Barbara Olsen and her houseban was a tad too dramatic imho.

keep wagging the dog

[alkizz]

Originally posted by miss_silver

But even though the plane was flying at a speed of 400mph (close to a Concorde in speed)

umm a concorde is MUCH faster

Concorde takes off at 220 knots (250mph) (compared with 165 knots for most subsonic aircraft). She cruises at around 1350mph - more than twice the speed of sound - and at an altitude of up to 60,000 ft (over 11 miles high).

MACH 2..

[miss_silver]

Was under the impression a concorde flight speed was about 500mph

Just did the math. The top speed a concorde will achive will be of 1354mph. Thanks for correcting me on this alkizz

[Sinner]

What a boring world it would be if there were no Liberals......



El Al Flight 1862, Amsterdam



Quote from

Pentagon Attack Plane Was An El Al Lookalike

Flights 77 and 1862 both had "vanishing" wings

Joe Vialls

Many weeks ago I wrote a report designed to rebut arcane French suggestions that American Airlines Flight 77 did not strike the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. According to the French, the building was allegedly hit either by a much smaller aircraft, or perhaps by a bomb planted inside the Pentagon by its own ”evil” occupants, the United States Military.

Though I was not surprised by such extraordinary suggestions from a bunch of wine swilling Parisians, I was certainly surprised by the immediate and rampant American response. Within days, hundreds of US bulletin boards and web sites were awash with similar claims. It was an incredibly successful “divide and rule” exercise that pitted American against American, and civilian against soldier. Needless to say, the French were delighted.

The apparent problem was quite simple. American Airlines Flight 77 was a Boeing 757 twin-jet with a wingspan of 124 feet, but the hole in the Pentagon was less than 124 feet across. Conspiracy heaven! Obviously then, according to those determined to undermine American national security, the attack aircraft was a remotely-controlled F-16 fighter or Martell missile, almost certainly guided to its American military target by a crazed four-star American general buried deep inside Cheyenne Mountain at NORAD headquarters.

My original report sought to stem this rising tide of disinformation by using the personal example of a British Mach 2 Lightning fighter with a wingspan of 35 feet, which vanished completely into a hole in the ground with a diameter of only 22 feet. Unfortunately I could not prove this with a photo because the 400 mph Lightning crash occurred at the height of the Cold War, and anyone [including me] caught taking happy snaps of the impact crater with a Brownie box camera, would probably still be locked up in the Tower of London today.

What I should have done instead, was conduct a simple Internet search for photographs of civil equivalents of this exact phenomena where a big plane vanishes into a small hole. So should the French… Not far north of the wine-swilling Parisians lies the elegant Dutch city of Amsterdam, whose residents had a terrible shock at 6:35 PM on October 4, 1992. Henk Prijt in the suburb of Bijlmer put it this way:..........

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevese...n/pentagon.htm




Take a close look at the Bijlmer photographs and the Pentagon graphic, because we are about to take a short though very simple crash course in the dynamics of flight. Not for us the overly complicated scientific equations, and accredited academic “experts” who manage to confuse everyone apart from their own students.

In the simplest of terms and purely for background information, the energy produced by any object hitting another object, is the product of the first object’s mass [weight] multiplied by its velocity [speed]. In these terms Flight 77 had a mass of 240,000 pounds when it hit the Pentagon at +/- 450 mph, and Flight 1862 had a mass of about 680,000 pounds when it hit the Bijlmer apartment block at 255 mph. Both aircraft therefore produced colossal energy on contact with targets constructed from very similar materials, i.e. concrete.

A high proportion of the mass in any aircraft is contained within its fuselage, which presents a very small cross section at the point of impact, relative to the thin but very wide and fragile wings. Thus in both cases the high mass and low cross section caused Flight 77 and Flight 1862’s fuselages to punch holes deep into and through the concrete targets.

The wings are a different matter. By design the wings are immensely strong but also very brittle, and in both these cases swept back for aerodynamic efficiency. Put simply they cannot compete with the speed [velocity] of penetration of the fuselage [mass], and simply snap off on impact. This is an aeronautical reality that can be observed in thousands of assorted crash photographs.

The problem when an aircraft hits a flat building is that, although the wings snap off, they still have enormous inertia and will continue moving forward if at all possible. With swept wing aircraft, the tendency is for the angled wings to collapse back along the sides of the fuselage section, very much in the manner of swing-wing aircraft such as the General Dynamics F111 and Panavia Tornado.

Now think about this very carefully, because these events are happening at hundreds of miles per hour – hardly the ideal medium for visual observation. Because both aircraft have swept wings, the first part of the wing to hit the target is the wing root at the inner front of the wing, considerably further forward than the wingtip.

In the first microsecond of impact the front of the swept wing starts to fold back as it collapses, and perhaps in the next two or three microseconds the wings are crushed inwards and backwards to less than half the original wingspan. This is proved beyond any doubt by the pictures of the Bijlmer crash site shown above. El Al Flight 1862, a Boeing 747-200, had a wiingspan of 212 feet, is known to have crashed with its wings level, but the gap in the tower block is only half that wide.



Next we have the vexed question of aircraft debris as understood by the public, i.e. identifiable parts of the aircraft that can be visually matched to an aircraft schematic diagram, or even mechanical parts that can be visually matched to items in the manufacturer’s handbook. Look at the Bijlmer crash site again.

Can you see any large or even small wing sections? Can you see engines, or perhaps part of the tail assembly? In fact, can any of you positively identify any single aircraft bolt, or human body part belonging to El Al Flight 1862?

No, absolutely not, because the dynamics of the crash and the fire that followed immediately afterwards, fragmented and burned more than 300 tons of aircraft completely beyond recognition. The only way we can be sure that the photographs show us the real crash site of El Al Flight 1862 is to rely on air traffic control records, eyewitnesses at the scene, and the multiple media reports that followed.

It must be said that the French only showed American viewers the photographs it wanted them to see – a known and much abused media trick. The more comprehensive photographs circulated by the Pentagon shortly after the crash show conclusively that the aircraft penetrated three of the Pentagon “rings”, i.e. rings of office blocks circling the center gardens, each with its own “garden” space in-between. Such a structure is as difficult to penetrate by an aircraft, as a bullet fired through individual separated baffle plates on a firing range.

I have neither the Cray supercomputer nor the time needed to do exact calculations, but I can assure you that the “object” which hit the Pentagon was of enormous weight travelling at very high velocity. In fact, it was American Airlines Flight 77.

The only thing that allowed the French to put up this widespread myth in the first place, was the lack of a second aircraft directed at the Pentagon, which would certainly have been recorded by media cameras. The planners of the attack probably thought this unnecessary, because Flight 77 appears to have been largely a decoy.

[miss_silver]

lol

Sinner, you are a joker

Just did several research on flight 77. What struck me odd is those images compared to the angle of flight 77

From the same point of view, the way materials of a 100 tons plane should move and what destruction they should cause in a crash against a building like the pentagon reinforce this impossibility.

Taking as references images of crashes against buildings, (in Holland, the Concorde of Air France), it seems evident that the scene of the Pentagon and surroundings after the crash (the lawn intact, ...) is not the scene of a 757 crash.

The approach of a 757 towards this building leave a lot of questions unanswered (realism of the approach trajectory, position of the impact point, no track of the landing gear (which gets down automatically near the ground) on the grass, ...).
And if it was not a 757 ?

This would explain why these frames have been "lost" : they are those on which one can recognize that it this not this airliner which hit the pentagon. The first to claim for this thery was the french journalist Thierry Meyssan : according to him, something (a missile, a remotely piloted fighter) was directed on the pentagon, in order to increase the gravity of the attack of Bin Laden on 9/11, the pentagon being a military target. Four hypotheses can be formulated and argumented : the "cruise missile theory", the "foo fighter" theory, the "remotely piloted fighter" theory and the "suicide pilot" theory.
The cruise missile theory

What we could see in this hypotheses if the FBI and/or DOD released the complete video. What could it be ? Hypotheses : it is an AGM 86 cruise missile.

Keep wagging that dog

Like I said earlier, it's amazing that a 300$ camcorder can do a better job filming true event than security cam at the pentagone

[floydian slip]

Originally posted by Sinner


Joe Vialls

http://members.fortunecity.com/911/p...er/bijlmer.htm


however he does know that 9/11 did not happen the way our media tells us. he even contradicts himself sometimes

http://www.joevialls.co.uk/myahudi/fortress1.html
http://www.joevialls.co.uk/transpositions/marriott.html
http://www.joevialls.co.uk/sublimina...tion/oil2.html
http://www.joevialls.co.uk/transpositions/concorde.html

[miss_silver]

forgot to post the pic to my reply to sinner

Floyd, thank you for conferming i'm not going

[floydian slip]

hmmmmmm

http://membres.lycos.fr/applemacintosh/pentagon.htm

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by floydian slip
hmmmmmm

http://membres.lycos.fr/applemacintosh/pentagon.htm

Thats a new one However too make the point a little better it would have been much more believable to have side by side comparisons of the specified parts from each craft. However the author didn't bother with this though it was well put together. It's easy to say that debris resembles a Global Hawk but if there were similar parts side by side?
The #1 question is if it was a Global Hawk where are the 60 some odd people from flight 77? Or were they made up as well?

The hardest thing to swallow about any conspiracy theory on this is people died..... alot of people......A conspiracy could be imagined with only a few deaths but not on this scale. They would have to make alot of people vanish or create alot of false identities?

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by miss_silver
lol


Like I said earlier, it's amazing that a 300$ camcorder can do a better job filming true event than security cam at the pentagone

The majority of security camera's in use do not shoot continuous like a camcorder which shoots as much as 30 "give or take a few" frames per second. Security cameras tend to shoot on selected intervals to save on film etc. Take gas stations for example the camera's in use there may only snap a picture once every ten seconds. Just because the monitor inside looks real time and smooth only a few frames are recorded. Assuming the pentagon had a rather high tech security camera I would still doubt if it shot more than 3-5 frames per second. So played back at real time the picture would most likely be very choppy or appear to miss frames.
They're not looking to make home video's to sit down and watch with the kids.

[Pacewon]

This is somewhat interesting. The sun seems to be on the right side of the photo, so 2 seconds before the impact there should have been at least a shadow of the airplane approaching....

[Squid]

Originally posted by miss_silver
forgot to post the pic to my reply to sinner

Floyd, thank you for conferming i'm not going

you're not crazy, just stupid. it annoys me to no end that people like you think they have a clue about what happened on 9/11 (or any important date) "keep wagging the dog" lol get a fucking clue. it seems to me that you're the dog that's wagging.

if i showed you a video tape of osama killing your mother would you still think it's fake?

you make what happened at the pentagon (i noticed how you spelled it and it offended me greatly, people died there and you trivialize it.) if you really believe the things you type it's quite possible you are my enemy.

the lack of respect in this thread for the murdered people in the pentagon is appalling. shame on you.

[Squid]

AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77
American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.




CREW

Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.

David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."

Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.

Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.

Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.

Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.





PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.

Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.

M.J. Booth

Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.

William Caswell

Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Eddie Dillard

Charles Droz

Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.

Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.

Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."

Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.

Dee Flagg

Richard Gabriel

Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.

Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.

Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.

Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.

Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.

Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.

Yvonne Kennedy

Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.

Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.

Norma Langsteuerle

Dong Lee

Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.

Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.

Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.

Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.

Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.

Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.

Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.

John Sammartino

Diane Simmons

George Simmons

Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.

Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.

Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.

Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.

John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.

Vicki Yancey

Shuyin Yang

Yuguag Zheng


just so you know whose lives you so enjoy shitting on.

[Pacewon]

For Miss_silver: However, this photograph clearly shows airplane debree...

http://cfapp.rockymountainnews.com/s...entagon1&NUM=8

[miss_silver]

Originally posted by Pacewon
For Miss_silver: However, this photograph clearly shows airplane debree...

http://cfapp.rockymountainnews.com/s...entagon1&NUM=8

Thanks for the info Pace

[miss_silver]

Originally posted by Squid
you're not crazy, just stupid. it annoys me to no end that people like you think they have a clue about what happened on 9/11 (or any important date) "keep wagging the dog" lol get a fucking clue. it seems to me that you're the dog that's wagging.

Do you, have a clue as to what happened on 9/11? Not disputing what was seen on tapes about WTC crashes. Just have some serious doubts about the pentagon plane crash. You sait it, ppl like me, not alone here. I look at pictures of what happened, search information on the net of what might have happened on this date, drew some conclusions and didn't gobble up CNN news as it was the god givin truth.

if i showed you a video tape of osama killing your mother would you still think it's fake?

Isn't it a bit of an overreach, osama killing my mother? Don't know about you but i'm not into snuff movies.

you make what happened at the pentagon (i noticed how you spelled it and it offended me greatly, people died there and you trivialize it.) if you really believe the things you type it's quite possible you are my enemy.

Hey, english is a second language to a lot of ppl posting on this board, would you shit on every on then because they mispelled some american icon? In french it's spelled pentagone because of the building shape. You seem to be the only one to be disturbed by a misspell which didn't even knew i was making. My deepest apologies for english being a second language I had to learn verbally aswell as reading and writing it and sometimes mispelling it. I do not trivialise the lives that were lost in the attack and to tell you the truth, still shocked that those towers fell to terrorist attack. I don't want to be no ones enemy but if my opinions shock you, don't read them. Things tend to heat up on any political bb's, even saw some where ppl were wishing death or harm on other users because of their point of views or opinions.

the lack of respect in this thread for the murdered people in the pentagon is appalling. shame on you.

Just out of the blue, can you eat your breakfast in the morning while hearing on the news that 100 women and children met a violent and bloody death at the end of a machetti somewhere in africa? I can't. If you truly think that talking about other theories as to might what have happened to the pentagon is a lack of respect to the ppl who died on this day, then you might have to justify the disrespect of the american army toward the iraqui population. How many innocent died because of 'friendly fire' ? Each time I open the tv in the morning, day after day I see 10 iraquian killed, another day it's 13, on another day it 5 and another day it... Reminds me of a song by Genesis, Blood on the rooftop.