The Tide is turning on Bush

[Sinner]

Voluntary to join? yes
Voluntary in the event a short sighted president chooses to send you on an ill conceived and ill fated fools errand? hell no.

The President is short sighted? I have never seen him with glasses. Ill conceived and ill fated fools errand? Says who? You? If you join the army as a infantry soldier then you do and go where you are told as long as you are not violating any international laws which the USA is not, doesn’t what you think. I can not believe anyone would join the military thinking they will not be put in harms way at some point in their employment choice. It is not rational.

Which terrorists are you talking about? Bush the terrorist? Blain the terrorist? Osama? Who?

None of the above – Who you ask, well how about Saleh Arugayan Kahlil and Bassim Mohammad Hazeem or even Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

Dont bother trying to villify the Sunnis, most of them werent baathist, they have every reason to be concerned about their situation in a Shiite controlled government. The majority of Sunnis had nothing to do with the events you have tried to smear them with by association. So dont try to imply that "Sunnis" did anything.... individuals, some of whom were sunni did horrible things, it doesnt condemn them all.

Okay, allow me to rephrase my statement, Most of the Baath party were Sunni Arabs who murdered, raped, etc Kurds and Shia Arabs. Happy now? --Baath was impressed by the ability of al Qaeda to get young men to fight for free, and to carry out suicide attacks. Baath's Iraqi manpower was either former secret police and Republican Guard members, who were out of a job and fearful of retribution from the kin of their victims. If Baath provided some of that lost salary, these fellows were willing to carry on as before. Other Iraqis were willing to carry out tasks like planting roadside bombs and collecting information, for a fee. But the Baath Party plan for taking back power depended on uniting the Sunni Arab population behind them, and then somehow regaining control of the Kurdish and Shia Arab population. Baath quickly discovered that many Sunni Arabs wanted no part of the Baath Party, and were joining the new government police force and army. But Baath knew how to deal with this. Over decades, Baath, and especially their former leader, Saddam Hussein developed terror tactics that were very effective in controlling the population of Iraq. The Baath was largely a Sunni Arab party, and using these hard core members, threats were made to Sunni Arabs who were working for the new government. If threats didn't work, kidnapping and murder were used. Kidnap one member of a family, and you get the cooperation of the entire family, and often a ransom as well. Despite these efforts, the Sunni Arab police and army units continued to form. Many of these Sunni Arab police and troops fled when confronted by Baath and al Qaeda gunmen. The al Qaeda suicide bombing attacks on police stations and army bases were particularly terrifying. But still Sunni Arabs continued to resist backing Baath. ---

Well said, another rose colored glass perspective. Face reality, the elections will be a sham. Without participation from the Sunnis, there is almost no chance of any government created to stand on its own. More like the French revolution than the American Rev.

So, first you say I am condemning all Sunni with my post and then in the same breath you do the same. HEY!! Just because some Sunnis refuse to participate in the elections doesn’t mean they all don’t, Don’t bother trying to vilify them by saying Sunnis don’t want a democracy and free elections.

Which means either we either stand between them and get caught in the crossfire for another decade. Or we let them have at each other, and leave them in a situation that could easily become worse than it was under Saddam. In reality we cant leave, we cannot afford to relinquish control of the oil in such an undependable situation.

You are right, The USA is not going anywhere.

As far as required military service? No way, but then again, it seems the Godlovers always enjoy war more than anything else.

Calling me a God Lover –I don’t believe in God, after-life, or any of that bull shit. The Church is a Business, and a good one, I just don’t buy their product.

[albed]

Face reality, the elections will be a sham. Without participation from the Sunnis, there is almost no chance of any government created to stand on its own. More like the French revolution than the American Rev.

The Sunnis are only 20% of the population of Iraq. I know of a democratic government standing on its own for a long time without the participation of over 50% of the population.



Come to think of it, in the last US election 40% of voters didn't participate, but you could just call that a sham the way you call anything whatever you want without any regard to the truth.

[Vladd44]

Originally Posted by Sinner

The President is short sighted? I have never seen him with glasses. Ill conceived and ill fated fools errand? Says who? You? If you join the army as a infantry soldier then you do and go where you are told as long as you are not violating any international laws which the USA is not, doesn’t what you think. I can not believe anyone would join the military thinking they will not be put in harms way at some point in their employment choice. It is not rational.

How cute, I see the short sightedness runs in the shallow end of the gene pool, You, little bushler and albed. You typified it with your statement after the glasses comment. I never said they had no expectation of being put in harms way. But I dont think its an unreasonable expectation to hope that your life is not wasted on an ill conceived plan foisted upon an american public riveted by fear.

Originally Posted by I Said

Well said, another rose colored glass perspective. Face reality, the elections will be a sham. Without participation from the Sunnis, there is almost no chance of any government created to stand on its own. More like the French revolution than the American Rev.

Originally Posted by Sinner

So, first you say I am condemning all Sunni with my post and then in the same breath you do the same. HEY!! Just because some Sunnis refuse to participate in the elections doesn’t mean they all don’t, Don’t bother trying to vilify them by saying Sunnis don’t want a democracy and free elections.

The fact that I dont expect sunnis to participate in the sham elections is not a condemnation of them, it is simply an observation of reality. I wouldnt be real big on involvment in elections held by an occupying force.

Originally Posted by Albed

The Sunnis are only 20% of the population of Iraq. I know of a democratic government standing on its own for a long time without the participation of over 50% of the population.

Come to think of it, in the last US election 40% of voters didn't participate, but you could just call that a sham the way you call anything whatever you want without any regard to the truth.

Vast difference between apathetic americans and a bloc of disenfranchised voters. For example, African Americans in the US account for 12% of the population, If one were to write them off it would be foolish. And quite frankly I dont think choosing to ignore them would be an option, it would be no less foolish than trying to marginalize the sunnis in iraq.

Quit being so fearful, change your underwear and enter real life.

I can only hope that Iraq ends better than I can anticipate. I have difficulty believing this is the iraq bush and co expected to have by 05. http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx The price of me being right is more than I want others to bear. It may be easy for you to rationalize the loss of young americans in war, but your platitudes will provide no comfort for mothers, wives, husbands, dads and their children. Supporting the military isnt waving a flag like a fucktard with a gomer pyle look on your face. Its expecting them to be used when needed, not in such a cavalier manner.

In a decade we wont be having this discussion, the reality of the situation will bear out the truth. However, both of you are invited to my place to watch the "A&E Blunders in American History W Bush, volume 1-5" box set when it comes out! I will provide the beer and the weed.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Vladd44

I can only hope that Iraq ends better than I can anticipate. I have difficulty believing this is the iraq bush and co expected to have by 05. http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

gee, Cheney said the Iraqis were going to be dancing in the streets, greeting us as liberators - didn't you get the memo?

[Vladd44]

heh

Yeah I got that one right along with the one that told me of the US's well planned exit strategy.

It also included information on where hoffa is buried, Who really shot JFK, What happened to Ameilia Earhart, and what happens to the relatives of nazi collaborators in this country.

Oh wait we already know, nazi collaborators sons becomes president, and sometimes their grandson too!!!!!!!!!

The bush family has made a tradition of selling the us out for personal interest.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by Vladd44

How cute, I see the short sightedness runs in the shallow end of the gene pool,

Oh Yeah - Your short sighted aswell? Can't be that bad could it?

You, little bushler and albed. You typified it with your statement after the glasses comment. I never said they had no expectation of being put in harms way. But I dont think its an unreasonable expectation to hope that your life is not wasted on an ill conceived plan foisted upon an american public riveted by fear.

Wrong - it is very reasonable and their lives are not wasted, maybe you think their lives are wasted and you can have that opinion because thousands died in armed conflict to give you that right.

There is a War going on in Iraq but it is not the War being reported on CNN. ---The government understands that they will prevail, but are uncertain about how many more people will die from terrorist attacks before Baath and al Qaeda are crushed. The terrorists have allies in the foreign media, who label the terrorists as nationalistic insurgents. The media portrays the terrorists as having some kind of chance of taking over. But with 80 percent of the population (the Kurds and Shia Arabs) dead set against Baath and al Qaeda (for many reasons), and the Sunni Arabs resisting the terror as well, it's difficult to see how anyone with a sense of history, or a knowledge of basic math, can fall for that. The battle against the Iraqi terror is not being reported accurately. One reason is that the American military cannot release information then have about the enemy, as that would let the terrorists know what is known about them. This is a war of information. The terrorists depend on secrecy for protection. They must remain invisible to survive. But bit by bit, the Baath Party and al Qaeda organization has been revealed. And as it is, raids go in and take it apart. Towns and neighborhoods are cleared of terrorists and staffed with police and army bases.---

The U.S, military planners, from the beginning, saw the situation as a classic counter-terrorist operation. The American military has been winning these kinds of wars for over a century, and the methods used then still work. The U.S. Marines, who did a lot of this in the early part of the 20th century, wrote a book about it in 1940; "The Small Wars Manual." This is still be used successfully. Vietnam was one of the few times American counter-terrorism tactics failed. Or did they? Actually, they didn't. By the early 1970s, the communist rebels in South Vietnam were crushed. What people forget was that South Vietnam fell to a conventional invasion from the north in 1975. The Baath Party and al Qaeda have no neighbor with an army ready to come in and rescue them.

This time around, American troops have better tools to collect information, identify the terrorists and quickly carry out raids. The terrorists had big advantages, in that they were Iraqi and the Iraqi population knew very well what the Baath thugs were capable of. A further complication was the attempt by the newly formed Iraqi government to negotiate deals with traditional Iraqi tribal and religious leaders. It was thought that these leaders could rally their followers to resist the terrorists. This had worked among the Kurds and Shia Arabs. There was some resistance from Shia Arab groups that wanted to establish an Islamic Republic, but these were defeated by the Summer of 2004. But many of the Sunni Arab leaders have proved unable, or unwilling, to resist the terrorism.

In a decade we wont be having this discussion, the reality of the situation will bear out the truth. However, both of you are invited to my place to watch the "A&E Blunders in American History W Bush, volume 1-5" box set when it comes out! I will provide the beer and the weed.

In a decade we will be discussing whatever war is going on at that time, I have no interest in meeting you so keep puffing on the peace pipe while looking for some sense of reality.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by theknife

gee, Cheney said the Iraqis were going to be dancing in the streets, greeting us as liberators - didn't you get the memo?

Please provide a link to the fact Cheney said that - I believe you are trying to re-write history again knife.

If you would like I can provide you with a couple dozen links which show the Iraqis dancing in the streets when the US Military rolled into Bagdad. Remember the Statue of Saddam being torn down? They were having a little party, guess you would rather ignore that fact. Hell Facts are not your thing anyway.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by Vladd44

heh

Yeah I got that one right along with the one that told me of the US's well planned exit strategy.

It also included information on where hoffa is buried, Who really shot JFK, What happened to Ameilia Earhart, and what happens to the relatives of nazi collaborators in this country.

Oh wait we already know, nazi collaborators sons becomes president, and sometimes their grandson too!!!!!!!!!

The bush family has made a tradition of selling the us out for personal interest.

This must be the weed talking.....keep the peace pipe away from the computer.

[Vladd44]

Originally Posted by Vladd44

what happens to the relatives of nazi collaborators in this country.

Oh wait we already know, nazi collaborators sons becomes president, and sometimes their grandson too!!!!!!!!!

The bush family has made a tradition of selling the us out for personal interest.

Originally Posted by Sinner

This must be the weed talking.....keep the peace pipe away from the computer.

OFC the peace pipe is right here....

Originally Posted by history

October 20, 1942

The U.S. government, under the Trading with the Enemy Act, ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City that were being conducted by Prescott Bush. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, Avrell Harriman, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Bush

Historical Document

[pisser]

Originally Posted by albed

Damn, I'd swear this was from a woman. Must be the hormones.




The hormones must fluctuate though:

http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/...ad.php?t=20331





http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/...ad.php?t=19437





http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/...ad.php?t=19390




How precious life is indeed.
Occasionally the hormones settle down and reason prevails:

http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/...ad.php?t=19566



Someday menopause will reveal the real pisser.

Ha Ha...Your a funny ?Dude? maybe......

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Originally posted by James Dunnigan, with thoughtful additions by Sinner.
The people who do not want democracy are the Sunni's which is 20% of the population - Saddam was a Sunni as was the Baath Party he ran – They maintained control by murdering thousands of Iraqis a year, and threatening that, and worse, to anyone thinking of resisting. The government countermeasures included kidnapping, torture, mutilation and group punishment. That last measure was one of the most effective. If someone was known, or thought, to be against the government, their family could be arrested, tortured or murdered. Because of this bloody history of brutal ruling techniques, many, inside and outside the Arab world – including you miss silver -, insist that Arabs cannot be ruled as a democracy. The Kurds and Shia Arabs of Iraq disagree with this. But Iraq will be the first real Arab democracy in the region, and the continued brutal Sunni Arab resistance to this puts the new democracy to a harsh test. Because the Sunni’s have murdered so many people they are worried when the Kurds and Shia Arabs take power they will be murdered or worse. Of course a democracy may not work and that could lead to a war much like the American Revolution.

Originally posted by James Dunnigan, with thoughtful additions by Sinner.
There is a War going on in Iraq but it is not the War being reported on CNN. ---The government understands that they will prevail, but are uncertain about how many more people will die from terrorist attacks before Baath and al Qaeda are crushed. The terrorists have allies in the foreign media, who label the terrorists as nationalistic insurgents. The media portrays the terrorists as having some kind of chance of taking over. But with 80 percent of the population (the Kurds and Shia Arabs) dead set against Baath and al Qaeda (for many reasons), and the Sunni Arabs resisting the terror as well, it's difficult to see how anyone with a sense of history, or a knowledge of basic math, can fall for that. The battle against the Iraqi terror is not being reported accurately. One reason is that the American military cannot release information then have about the enemy, as that would let the terrorists know what is known about them. This is a war of information. The terrorists depend on secrecy for protection. They must remain invisible to survive. But bit by bit, the Baath Party and al Qaeda organization has been revealed. And as it is, raids go in and take it apart. Towns and neighborhoods are cleared of terrorists and staffed with police and army bases.---

Now if I was one of those rabid 'conservatives' that frequent the board, I'd probably accuse you of parroting Dunnigan because you have no thoughts of your own, and pretend that that settled the whole issue.

To say that Sunnis "do not want democracy" is just so much BushSpeak, akin to calling them "freedom-hating." I'm not trying to 'defend' the Sunnis, but this kind of gross simplification just isn't realistic.

I'm not one of those people believe that 'Arabs cannot be ruled as a democracy,' but 'ruled as democracy' is an interesting phrase too, and needs to be examined. American's don't think of themselves as 'ruled by democracy' but as participants in democracy, but then we don't have an outside military presence bearing down us that we can accuse of favoring one group or causing one group to dissent altogether. I dare say we'd find that most problematic.

There seems to be many different reasons that a significant number of Iraqis across the board do find it problematic--and they do not seem to be based on a hate or fear of true democracy at all, but rather stem from a suspicion of being manipulated on one hand and a fear for their very lives on the other. People of all affiliations are afraid to even be seen registering to vote while officials seen as compliant with American interests are being assassinated. There are rumors of up to a million Iranian Shiites pouring in to tip the election, and a pretty pervasive feeling that the election of Sistani or other favored Shiites is a foregone conclusion anyway, and will be taken as tantamount to the installation of a puppet, giving many all the more reason to fight on and fight that much harder. Of course the Sunnis are playing that hand, even claiming voting in such an election is a sin, but their boycotts will undermine any pretense of a truly democratic process.

This is an outright clash of theocracies neither of which truly fit into our democratic molds from the outset.

"The Americans have set this up in such a way that a lot is at stake after this election,'' says Juan Cole, a professor of Middle Eastern history at the University of Michigan. "If the Sunnis are grossly underrepresented in this constitutional constituent assembly, it will be set up for a guerrilla war that lasts for decades."

I believe most Americans, especially those so vehemently determined to justify Bush's double-talk, have extremely unrealistic expectations about some poetic outcome of this conflict and the probable picture of a self-governing Iraq beyond it, typified by a belief that this election will represent anything but the most superficial cosmetic change--plastic surgery for a cancer patient.

Unfortunately Bush is still insisting "We have a vital interest in the success of a free Iraq. You see, free societies do not export terror."

In my opinion this is, A: a blatant fallacy and extremely misleading, and B: the exact wrong context in which to frame our involvement, the wrong reason for us to be there. To say we have a vital interest in the success of a free Iraq is only underlining that we will define that success and the parameters of that freedom in our terms, from our point of view and according to our best interests. That message is not doing shit for global security issues, and it's not doing shit for any of the people or parties of Iraq. Of course many will profit from the collective mood for staying long term, but they aren't the Iraqis who want to be free, and they aren't the average American believing they are investing in their own security.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone

Now if I was one of those rabid 'conservatives' that frequent the board, I'd probably accuse you of parroting Dunnigan because you have no thoughts of your own, and pretend that that settled the whole issue.

I left a link in my post - My thoughts are along the same line as Mr. Dunnigan.


Edit - oops no link in above post, my bad........

[multi]

well it wasnt rumsfeld...

In recent testy exchanges with reporters, Rumsfeld interrupted the questioners and attacked the premise of the questions if they dealt with his prewar comments about weapons of mass destruction and Americans as liberators.

For example, on Feb. 20, a month before the invasion, Rumsfeld fielded a question about whether Americans would be greeted as liberators if they invaded Iraq.

``Do you expect the invasion, if it comes, to be welcomed by the majority of the civilian population of Iraq?'' Jim Lehrer asked the defense secretary on PBS' News Hour.

``There is no question but that they would be welcomed,'' Rumsfeld replied, referring to American forces.

But on Sept. 25 -- a particularly bloody day for the forces occupying Iraq -- Rumsfeld was asked about the surging resistance.

``Before the war in Iraq, you stated the case very eloquently and you said... they would welcome us with open arms,'' Sinclair Broadcasting anchor Morris Jones said to Rumsfeld as the prelude to a question.

The defense chief quickly cut him off.

``Never said that,'' he said. ``Never did. You may remember it well, but you're thinking of somebody else. You can't find, anywhere, me saying anything like either of those two things you just said I said.''
http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjourna...7219873.htm?1c

did someone say "cakewalk war"

March 16, the Sunday before the war began, in an interview with Tim Russert, Vice President Cheney said that Iraqis want "to get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that."
"...the vast majority of them would turn on [Saddam Hussein] in in a minute if, in fact, they thought they could do so safely."

no official line on the dancing bit...
but a hell of a lot of people got it from somewhere...

[albed]

Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone

Unfortunately Bush is still insisting "We have a vital interest in the success of a free Iraq. You see, free societies do not export terror."

In my opinion this is, A: a blatant fallacy and extremely misleading,

Do you know of any free societies 'exporting terror' then?

Originally Posted by Ramona_A_Stone

...and B: the exact wrong context in which to frame our involvement, the wrong reason for us to be there.

So what's the right reason then, taking their oil? Come on...just for old times sake.

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Nationalities of the 911 hijackers: 12 Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 United Arab Emirates, 1 Lebanese (who lived in Germany), and 4 Unknown nationalities.

Of course a huge effort has gone into you forgetting that. You might quibble that Saudis and Egyptians are "not free," but your president seems rather irrationally unconcerned about that, and if you think Iraq will ever resemble anything more free than them, you're even more gullible than you seem.

[albed]

Great answer Ramona!

This tells me that, A: you don't let the facts interfere with your opinions, and B: while you always insist it's being done wrong you can't think of a better way of doing it.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Sinner

Please provide a link to the fact Cheney said that - I believe you are trying to re-write history again knife.

If you would like I can provide you with a couple dozen links which show the Iraqis dancing in the streets when the US Military rolled into Bagdad. Remember the Statue of Saddam being torn down? They were having a little party, guess you would rather ignore that fact. Hell Facts are not your thing anyway.

Cheney's Iraq fantasies, like yours, are public record - surprised you didn't get the memo....

on NBC's "Meet the Press, 3/13/03:

"I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

other equally glaring miscalculations from the VP:

the fight would be "weeks rather than months.

Asked if Americans are prepared for a "long, costly and bloody battle," Cheney replied: "Well, I don't think it's likely to unfold that way. . . . The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of Saddam Hussein, and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel...etthepress.htm

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/

[Vladd44]

Originally Posted by Albed

Do you know of any free societies 'exporting terror' then?

The USA?
Israel?

Dont fit my definition of free, but may qualify in your world view.

[multi]

cakewalk

n 1: a strutting dance based on a march; was performed in minstrel shows; originated as a competition among Black dancers to win a cake 2: an easy accomplishment; "winning the tournament was a cakewalk for him"; "invading Iraq won't be a cakewalk" v : perform the cakewalk dance