P2P-Zone  

Go Back   P2P-Zone > Political Asylum
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Political Asylum Publicly Debate Politics, War, Media.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15-01-07, 04:46 PM   #41
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theknife View Post
hope you're right but the Prez seems hellbent for a constitutional confrontation.
it's not 2002 either.
the rubber stamp congress is gone.
the neocon enablers were sent to the unemployment line.
the prez can be impeached now and he is on thin ice.
even bush isn't stupid enough to chop out a circle around him in the ice.
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-07, 08:17 PM   #42
miss_silver
Keebeck Canuck
 
miss_silver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Close to a border of LUNATICS
Posts: 1,771
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
...even bush isn't stupid enough to chop out a circle around him in the ice.
Ya think?

Just hope for the good of the nation that you are right on this one.
miss_silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 12:18 AM   #43
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by multi View Post
oh come now Mazer.. you have supported everything the neocons have done so far
I have up to this point, but I have to concede that there have not been enough troops sent to Iraq and this minimalist strategy seems to be taking a toll, not just on public opinion (which really doesn't matter during wartime) but on the ability of the Army to secure Baghdad. It's probably time for a more conventional approach.

I can still remember a time when almost every American supported the neocons and Bush's approval rating was better than 85%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by multi View Post
the west and it previous incarnation has been enforcing democracy on a large portion of the human race for the last few hundered years
usually leaving some civil war in it's wake
I think what you're suggesting is technically impossible. We've certainly tried to defend democracy from totalitarianism with varying effect. You see, the great thing about democracy is that the voters have the right to relinquish their rights if that's what they want to do. Not surprisingly no nation has ever done so voluntarily, so we try to keep outside forces from causing democracies to collapse. If that's what you're complaining about then I wonder how you can stand to live in a democratic nation like Australia. Are you suggesting that people do not deserve the responsibilities we offer to them by fighting off their enemies?

We can't really give democracy to people, all we can do is put them in the position to govern themselves. We hope they will do so wisely, but if they can't then it's because of their own intolerance and prejudice. You can blame the people who offered them the opportunity to be free all you want, but in the end a democratic nation has to collectively determine its own future, and the all the credit and the blame for their actions lies with them.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 05:58 AM   #44
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
We can't really give democracy to people, all we can do is put them in the position to govern themselves.
Whether they want to be in that position or not?

I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 09:11 AM   #45
multi
Thanks for being with arse
 
multi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The other side of the world
Posts: 10,343
Default Next target Tehran

All the signs are that Bush is planning for a neocon-inspired military assault on Iran

Dan Plesch


The evidence is building up that President Bush plans to add war on Iran to his triumphs in Iraq and Afghanistan - and there is every sign, to judge by his extraordinary warmongering speech in Plymouth on Friday, that Tony Blair would be keen to join him if he were still in a position to commit British forces to the field.

"There's a strong sense in the upper echelons of the White House that Iran is going to surface relatively quickly as a major issue - in the country and the world - in a very acute way," said NBC TV's Tim Russert after meeting the president. This is borne out by the fact that Bush has sent forces to the Gulf that are irrelevant to fighting the Iraqi insurgents. These include Patriot anti-missile missiles, an aircraft carrier, and cruise-missile-firing ships.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1990498,00.html
__________________

i beat the internet
- the end boss is hard
multi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 09:45 AM   #46
Sinner
--------------------
 
Sinner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,379
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
it's not the 1930s and Iran is not even close in comparison to Germany. that argument not only doesn't fly, it sinks too.

Iran has done nothing to me or the USA and I do not believe they have plans to attack me or my country.

If they do attack us then we WILL make their country uninhabatible for a few thousand years.
Well then we will have to disagree, because if you really look at the situations, Iran is in somewhat the same situation Germany was in, in 1938. One difference is Hitler tried to keep is plans a secret and the only country willing to say Germany was a threat to the World was England, or I should say Churchill and a few of his party members. In Iran it is no secret, Iran is building nuclear weapons and has said they attend to wipe Israel off the map, oh and you do know they call America the Great Satan right? Yeah right, you have nothing to worry about. Why would some Muslim Extremist who considers the USA the Great Satan what to hurt Americans. Sure the bleeding hearts will say he is bluffing, but really how do you know he is bluffing, how can you take that chance? President Tom says one thing to the world like at the UN and then goes home and tells his people the opposite and threatens the world. Take a look at Iran, look at the cartoons they show their kids or their so called ďInvestigated ReportsĒ, Iran broadcast one explaining how Coca-cola, the big America company invests billions of dollars into Israel so they can invade Iran and kill everyone. Of course it is absolutely ridiculous, put that is just the tip of the iceberg of what Iran is selling their citizens. Maybe it will take another 9/11 to get people to realize the scope of Iran and the Middle East, I think the next attack, WHEN it happens will be much bigger.

Quote:
Whether they want to be in that position or not?

I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.

Who are you talking about? Who didnít want democracy? The insurgents? The Terrorist? The Dictators? The citizens?

I think one of those four did want democracy, guess which one.

The rest of your post is non-sense.
__________________
The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 10:59 AM   #47
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
Well then we will have to disagree, because if you really look at the situations, Iran is in somewhat the same situation Germany was in, in 1938.
Not even remotely close.


The truth is the same as it was with Iraq; Iran is not a threat to the USA.
The USA is NOT Israel.
If Iran nukes Israel; so what?
Israel then retaliates and the problem solves itself without costing me a dime or a trillion dollars.

If the Israeli people don't like that possible future then let them change it or avoid it or maybe even change their government which is leading them on the path to destruction.
Not my problem and I will not allow it to become my government's problem like they did with Iraq.
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 12:15 PM   #48
Sinner
--------------------
 
Sinner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,379
Default

So you would take the stance the USA took when Germany invaded Poland and France during the World War. It is miles away so who cares. Well it didnít take long for America to get attacked did it? America showed weakness and paid for it. Iran does not need to attack the USA directly, there are thousands of people standing in line to harm the USA, whether it be a dirty bomb, release chemicals in major cities, fly planes into buildings, or even fill a truck up with diesel fuel and fertilizer. And Iran supports and will help any and all of them any way they can.

If Iran nukes Israel there is no question the USA, Britain, and other allies will be in a full scale war with Iran and their allies and because nukes were used the cost to you and your nation will far exceed what Iraq has cost. There is no way you can believe America would allow an Extremist like President Tom nuke any country, never mind Israel and America is joined at the hip with Israel like it or not. It already is your government's problem, again like it or not, you may choose to ignore it and vote for bleeding heart liberals, it will not change this fact.

Last month there was a Gulf Cooperation Council meeting which included six of the Arab states, they met in Saudi Arabia and did a lot of talking about the threats from Iran. It is a fact that Iran is providing material for support on attacks against American troops, One of the Arab leaders reached the conclusion that Iran has already drawn up plans to take over Iraq once the USA backs out. They also determined that Iran is increasingly putting a stranglehold on Lebanon, by funding Hezbollah, and on Syria, a country that is dependent on them for support. Iran wants the take over the Middle East. Egypt released a statement saying "We don't want nuclear arms in the area but we are obligated to defend ourselves...It is irrational that we sit and watch from the sidelines when we might be attacked at any moment."

Sounds like they want nukes too, sounds like there maybe another arms race. No way the USA stands by and allows this to happen, even if it just means they put more money into weapon development to stay ahead of the game. To win in Iraq the USA and the rest of the Middle East will have to get control of Iran by what ever means necessary, be that talks or be that war. I hope talks but really has that ever worked????
__________________
The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 12:31 PM   #49
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
I don't like the way you live so I bust into your house, break all your stuff, and put you in a position to live the way I think you should. And leave a few of my weight lifting buddies living with you to make sure you don't revert to your old erroneous ways.
According to your way of thinking, I am with in my rights to do that and expect you to bake cakes for me in thanks.
If I happened to be a prisoner living under house arrest for a crime I didn't commit, like say the population of Iraq circa 2002, you would be doing the right thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
The truth is the same as it was with Iraq; Iran is not a threat to the USA.
The USA is NOT Israel.
If Iran nukes Israel; so what?
Israel then retaliates and the problem solves itself without costing me a dime or a trillion dollars.
Sinner's analysis seems pretty close to me, but if it's money you're worried about then what you should focus on is Iran's effect on the oil markets and the oil markets' effect on gas prices and the overall economic situation here at home. If we can nullify those effects by finding alternative energy sources then that's what we should do, but that solution is still a few years off and Iran's threat is imminent. It absolutely sucks, but that's the situation today and we've gotta deal with it. You may not think that military action is necessary, and you're probably right, but you can't seriously believe that no action is necessary.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 12:46 PM   #50
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
So you would take the stance the USA took when Germany invaded Poland and France during the World War.
Iran is not now nor ever was nor ever will be in any way comparable to 1930s Germany.
The only possible comparison between the world today and the world then would be the USA's unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq.
With one notable exception: Hitler and his war cabinet knew how to invade and occupy a foreign country; Bush and his inept crew didn't and still don't.
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 09:49 PM   #51
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
If I happened to be a prisoner living under house arrest for a crime I didn't commit, like say the population of Iraq circa 2002, you would be doing the right thing.
I make the decision as to whether or not you are a prisoner in need of liberation; you get no say in it.
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-07, 11:39 PM   #52
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
I make the decision as to whether or not you are a prisoner in need of liberation; you get no say in it.
That's a given; having no say is what being a prisoner is all about. Why state the obvious?

You don't ask a slave whether he thinks he is a slave, you ask him whether he wants to be free.

Last edited by Mazer : 17-01-07 at 01:31 AM.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 11:49 AM   #53
Sinner
--------------------
 
Sinner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,379
Default

There is one country out there in the world right now which still flies F-14 Tomcats, they bought them from the USA back in the 70ís. I am talking about Iran. The pentagon retired the American fleet and now they have a warehouse full of parts for these planes. Now I am no expert but would it not make sense to destroy all these parts? I would think so, unfortunately the pentagon disagrees and is having these parts transferred to an agency, which holds public surplus auctions, and these parts will be up for sale. I wonder, who on earth would want to buy them. Is it Joe Blow in Iowa who is building his own Tomcat to fly around the neighborhood or is it Iran with the whole Axis of Evil thing.

Quote:
A Defense Department official, Fred Baillie, said his agency followed procedures.

"The fact that those individuals chose to violate the law and the fact that the customs people caught them really indicates that the process is working," said Baillie, the Defense Logistics Agency's executive director of distribution. "Customs is supposed to check all exports to make sure that all the appropriate certifications and licenses had been granted."

The Pentagon recently retired its Tomcats and is shipping tens of thousands of spare parts to its surplus office ó the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service ó where they could be sold in public auctions. Iran is the only other country flying F-14s.
Feel better? I donít.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070116/...surplus_stings
__________________
The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 01:13 PM   #54
RDixon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,742
Default

Iran shot down a predator drone a few days ago that had violated their airspace.
And some time this week or next will be completing the installation of 3000 centrifuges capable of producing weapons grade material.
These sites are buried so deep that even the new illegally developed bunker buster mini nukes may not be able to destroy them.
Russia just sent them 30 SAMs that are capable of shooting down stealth bombers.
China has been and continues to supply Iran with nuclear weapons and ICBM technology that they stole from the USA.

Meanwhile the Bush admin puffs out their banny rooster chests and postures and accomplishes nothing.

Sorry if you disagree but Iran has a right to defend their soverignty.
It is their home; not yours and not mine.
They decide what is best for them and how they want to live and as long as it does not effect me, I have no problem with that.

The question is: Why does the Bush admin? What is the real reasons for the saber rattling from the paper ducks?
RDixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 01:33 PM   #55
Drakonix
Just Draggin' Along
 
Drakonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,210
Default

The F14 aircraft were originally sold to Iran during the reign of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (the last Shah of Iran).

The Iranian order totaled 80 F14 Tomcats and 714 AIM54 Phoenix missiles. The supply included spare engines and spare parts for about 10 years.

It is believed only about 10 of the aircraft remain operational.

There have been some very serious and embarrassing failures of security regarding diversion of military parts sold legitimately as surplus and subsequently diverted to Iranian agents.
__________________
Copyright means the copy of the CD/DVD burned with no errors.

I will never spend a another dime on content that I canít use the way I please. If I canít copy it to my hard drive and play it using the devices I want, when and where I want, I wonít be buying it. Period. They can all take their DRM, broadcast flags, rootkits, and Compact Discs that arenít really compact discs and shove them up their bottom-lines.
Drakonix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 02:15 PM   #56
Sinner
--------------------
 
Sinner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,379
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
Iran shot down a predator drone a few days ago that had violated their airspace.
This is a he said she said, The USA says it didn't happen and they are not missing a drone, so it is who ever you want to believe. I will believe the USA over Iran any day of the week.

Quote:
Russia just sent them 30 SAMs that are capable of shooting down stealth bombers.
Those SAMs sent have An attack radius of 12 miles, they are used for protection against an attack. I am not to concerned about those, the USA is also sending more patriot missiles to the area.

Quote:
China has been and continues to supply Iran with nuclear weapons and ICBM technology that they stole from the USA.
I would question that, I know in around 2003 Iran did import uranium from China, and Iran's Nuclear Program was started by the USA in the 50's under the Atoms for Peace program, the plan was to have 23 nuclear power stations across the country built together with the USA by the year 2000. Every thing changed in 1979.

Quote:
Meanwhile the Bush admin puffs out their banny rooster chests and postures and accomplishes nothing.

Sorry if you disagree but Iran has a right to defend their soverignty.
It is their home; not yours and not mine.
They decide what is best for them and how they want to live and as long as it does not effect me, I have no problem with that.

The question is: Why does the Bush admin? What is the real reasons for the saber rattling from the paper ducks?
Do you really need nuclear weapons to protect your sovereignty? This is where that whole We Want To Wipe A Country Off The Map statement President Tom made comes in to play. Backed by the fact Iran is supplying insurgents in Iraq with weapons.

As for the F-14ís, not to concerned about them, the technology of these aircrafts Iran has are very limited, it just seems odd they would put parts up for sale when really the only people who would want them right now are the enemy.
__________________
The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 02:46 PM   #57
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDixon View Post
Sorry if you disagree but Iran has a right to defend their soverignty.
It is their home; not yours and not mine.
They decide what is best for them and how they want to live and as long as it does not effect me, I have no problem with that.
The question of the day is not about Iran's sovereignty, it's about the threat they pose to the rest of the world. That threat has not manifest itself just yet, but in addition to the defensive weapons you've listed, they've also bought offensive weapons from Russia as Multi's story at the top of this thread explains. Their nukes will also be offensive weapons. Iran's posturing and saber rattling is much too direct to be ignored. Does Iran's sovereignty give them the right to send terrorists into Iraq, or to fire ICBM's at their neighbors? The Arab League is nervous, Israel has already been threatened, and we're just supposed to stand by and watch?

We all really hope they decide that peace is what's best for them, but our hope will not factor into their decision at all. Their leaders are at least as stubborn and hawkish as ours which means they will start a war sooner or later. And it will affect you, believe it or not; world wars tend to effect everyone.

Last edited by Mazer : 17-01-07 at 02:57 PM.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 07:36 PM   #58
theknife
my name is Ranking Fullstop
 
theknife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Promontorium Tremendum
Posts: 4,391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
Their leaders are at least as stubborn and hawkish as ours which means they will start a war sooner or later. And it will affect you, believe it or not; world wars tend to effect everyone.
it's more plausible that Iran's leaders are not as stupid as our leaders and are not going to start a war they cannot possibly win. why would they?
theknife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-07, 09:58 PM   #59
albed
flippin 'em off
 
albed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the real world
Posts: 3,216
Default

Because they think the U.S. government is being taken over by selfish cowards who won't lift a finger to help other people live in freedom.
albed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-07, 01:23 AM   #60
Mazer
Earthbound misfit
 
Mazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Moses Lake, Washington
Posts: 2,563
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theknife View Post
it's more plausible that Iran's leaders are not as stupid as our leaders and are not going to start a war they cannot possibly win. why would they?
In their minds the Iranian Revolution of 1979 continues to this day. That many of them call it the Muslim Revolution is telling: they think their Shi'a version of Islam will one day be the only version in existence and that it will spread to all corners of the world. To achieve that ambition they must first eliminate Sunni Islam by killing or subjugating all of its Arab adherents. They've wanted to do it for centuries, and the sectarian violence in Iraq is proof. For now they're content to fight their little jihad by covertly sending soldiers and materiel (read: terrorists and IED's) over their border to Iraq and Syria, and from there on to Lebanon and Israel. The point is they have already started a war they cannot possibly win, at least not the way they're fighting it now, and once they realize it their efforts will escalate.

You can call it stupid, but for them carrying out God's will is not an intellectual choice.
Mazer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump






All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© www.p2p-zone.com - Napsterites - 2000 - 2021