Help please from you musicians

[ranger121]

Much as I hate to admit having a problem (being a control freak):

We are a relatively inexperienced (technically) 5 piece band, 3 guitar, drummer, vocalist.

The singer has bought a monster sized mixer amp and the dogs in speakers, but none of us know how to get the best sound out of it.

The 3 guitar amps are all mic'd separately into the mix, 3 vocal mics, and the drummer has 3 mics through a notepad mixer into one channel.

What we all want to know is, what is the best procedure for setting everything up so that we get a good sound? Do we play instruments one at a time, get that level right, then two together or what? How is this mixing lark done? What about fold back? How do I set that up so feedback isn't a problem?

(Oh, I forgot to mention, all the wives/girlfiends don't have the first clue either, so it'll have to be one of the band who sets it up.)

TIA for any help.

[Mekajinn]

how many tape tracks/mics/desk inputs do you have?

[gazdet]

Depending on your venue and the type of music you play, (I take it you would be middle of the road/country/jazz/rock?) I would do the following.

Set the PA speakers up according to available space on stage or the rehearsal area... keep them in front of the vocal mics and as far apart as possible either side of the stage.

Drums:
1) Get the drummer to tune his kit, place one of his mics over the hi-hat /snare area, one between the first flying Tom and floor drum with consideration to using "side pickup" of the crash and ride cymbals..and finally muffle his kick drum and place the mic either inside or mounted to the front of the kick drum.

Have the drummer work around his kit while adjusting the mic settings at his 3 channnel onstage mixer for each area he has to obtain a even level thru the main PA...
once set, the drums can then be linearly raised and lowered at the main PA desk.

You are listening for a clean unmuffled full sound when raising the main drum volume at the PA mixing desk with no feedback at the highest output level he is likely to play at depending on the drum sticks/brushes selected for each song.

Set the guitar amps in the usual order onstage, if you have full foldback facillities, I would use the line out from the guitar amps and have all the guitar amps onstage set as low as possible (guitarists love to hear themselves ..ay Meka )

You can use the guitar amps to provide "onstage foldback" to each muso if you don't wish to use the foldback, but be aware the operator doesn't raise their own levels independantly while playing if you use mics as pickups for each guitar amp.

Run the guitar line outs to the PA desk and have each guitarist set their prefered onstage amp level (as low as possible) and then raise the PA mix level to test for the required sound thru the PA.... repeat for each guitarist .

Set the Vocal mics up for each singer... ensure the Mics are behind the line of the front of the PA speakers... use the graphics equalizer and echo to obtain the best sound for each singer's preference and the clarity as heard at the desk thru the front PA speakers.

Place the foldback speakers in front of each singer and the drummer as required... I doubt you will need to direct a high level of instrument sounds thru the foldback if you are using the guitar amps to provide onstage sound

Have the singer(s) test the mics again....raise the main PA level to the max volume level for the venue while he "sings" into it....listen for feedback and adjust the volume/graphics equalizer settings to suit.

Set all levels on the PA desk to low and have the band play a song that would be the loudest in your repertoire...

Have the mixer raise the main PA levels and mix the sound to obtain the best performance.... adjust the foldback levels as indicated by the misicians while they play....listen for feedback and use the foldback graphics equalizer to eliminate it.

Simplified...that's usually does it for us.

[walktalker]

Now I am glad to not be a musician

[ranger121]

Meka: it's eight mics or lines in, and we have 2 separate PA amps for foldback.

Gazdet: Thanks very much, very comprehensive. I'll be printing this off, and trying it all out tonight.

The only prob I can see is that only the bass amp has a line out, so we are relying on mics for rhythm and lead, but as you say it they are set low, then feedback shouldn't be a problem.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Mekajinn]

ye... what Gaz said... 'cept I'd personally always have 4 mics on the kit, and I'd go for kick, snare, hat and ride... the rest of the drums are mamby and will get picked up by the mics anywayz. As for that guitarist thing Gaz... well, it ain't like anyone ever listens to the bass or kit now is it... except for musicians that is lol

[gazdet]

Originally posted by Mekajinn
ye... what Gaz said... 'cept I'd personally always have 4 mics on the kit, and I'd go for kick, snare, hat and ride...

Yes I agree.... personally I have 6 but....

Originally posted by Ranger 121
..and the drummer has 3 mics through a notepad mixer into one channel.

....just working with what we got

Originally posted by Mekajinn
the rest of the drums are mamby and will get picked up by the mics anywayz. As for that guitarist thing Gaz... well, it ain't like anyone ever listens to the bass or kit now is it... except for musicians that is lol

jealous huh?.... bah!.... lol

[ranger121]

Well, practice over, and the band sounds 190% better than the last effort, thanks to your advice, Gaz.

Many thanks. We still need a tweak here and there, but on the whole we can concentrate on playing, rather than the very technical "why the **** does that sound so shit when I've spent over £1000 on it?"

[Headbanger]

Wow gaz, I never knew you were that into it.

Ranger:

Just another point... If this is strictly a rehersal or recording setup, the acoustics of the room are critical. No two rooms are the same so it would be impossible to advise you, but when micking amps, using sound baffles can clean up the sound quite a bit. Also, if there are odd dimentions to the room, the dynamics can be significantly changed with strategicly placed baffles elsewhere in the room.

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Yip. Great Topic(s). Now, just because I'm a Mod, I'm going to babble nearly incoherently somewhere near the topic and try to appear that I know what I am talking about, while saying nothing of real value.

I have had some good results recording and mixing bands, but I'm no expert there, I always achieve whatever I achieve with lots of trial and error and a whole-hog 'control freak' approach, even though I'm working without a clue other than my ear and it's different for every situation, and every band's sound. It's a form of delicate psychoacoustic alchemy. As Gaz (who knew!!?? - we thought he was just the Forum Deity trouncing around arbitrarily with Zeus-like impetuousness!) said in the drum thread, and I echo, it's all a matter of tweaking. There's virtually no foolproof approach that will tell you exactly how to mic a particular bass drum, (or kit) with a particular tuning, in a particular ambient space.

It's taken me literally days of working just with the drummer and headphones to achieve something realistically balanced, and going from there to a normal live room full of miked amps is... an art. lol. Placement of all the other sound sources is very significant in miking the drums, tilting a bass amp 12 degrees to the left can have a profound effect for instance. Mic movements of a half an inch, especially slight changes in angle, and slight nudges in eq can produce radically different effects. Plus I've never met two drummers with the same philosophy of mic placement or, in fact who even want to sound the same. So often, you're dealing with a person who may need to alter his (or her) tunings and playing techniques slightly to achieve a sound based on the in your head experience of playing the drums - which is almost impossible to recreate in the same room with its acoustic presence.

(In performance it may not be such a problem, but in recording 'live' bands, I almost always have to argue with drummers about the way they mic/play their cymbals - you can't mic cymbals and then play the hell out of them as if they weren't miked - and the constantly ringing frequencies of cymbals will cloud a mix faster than you can shake a stick at (?) With live sound, unless you're playing Giant Gigs, the final PA is to some degree just going to be an enhancement of acoustic presence - and here I'd say if at all possible, go for creating and maintaining true stereo seperation of the drums into your board, or two channels at least, - use of subtle panning can be very clarifying and create more space in the mix)

Anyway, I think there's a real transition a lot of drummers have to make when they go from being organic amplifiers to having artificial amplification, which ultimately may require more sensitivity, expression and control than flat-out acoustic power - it's a relationship that has to develop.

Here are some links to some rather cursory articles, sprinkled with a few general pearls:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7


And a really extensive article about tuning, with more links:
Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible

I think, too, designating a 'sound person' 'outside' the band is really important for a number of reasons. #1 probably being the fact that player's ears are often so tired of focusing on this alternate world of sound (the mix) that their hearing just becomes more and more selective during the process. You need someone who can 'impartially' think about your overall sound; someone you trust, obviously, and who can be frank. #2 is simply that bands with great sound almost always have a dedicated human sound slave, who is beloved.

As to your question about tweaking one instrument at a time and then in pairs etc, what I've done in the past is exactly that - if possible, the sound person and each musician should pair up in headphones and discuss eq and make detailed notes about the clearest and most desirable natural sound for that individual. Of course, once you're in to the overall mix, your settings will be nothing like these notes... lol - but it's crucial for getting a feel of each mic and each performers dynamic range, and determining and optimizing the usually very small but flexible range of your overall systems power to reproduce. A good sound person doesn't just sit at the board tweaking the faders either... they need to be able to challenge the performer to a degree, to try to be objective for the performers - and at this point there is a transition for the whole band - going from a band that plays great together to one that has great sound often requires subtle shifts in techniques and 'personal sound' that may feel counterintuitive at first hearing. (especially to drummers - Ramona ducks a flying drum stick) Again, the trust you put in someone to do this job, (even someone completely 'unqualified' but who is perceptive and has the enthusiasm to learn, as I've seen work wonders many times) is invaluable. And it should be someone willing and able to know your board, and prepared to to 'redesign' your sound to achieve consistency outside the practice space. Tip: Try not to pick anyone with a German surname. ...Libras and Capricorns are good... Steer clear of Leos.

That's my 2 cents I reckon, offered free of charge during this forum introductory trial offer for a limited time only.

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Tripped over this too, at Electronic Musician - "Underground Drum Sounds" By Myles Boisen - sort of broad perspective on the evolution of drum recording in pop music. Perhaps not life changing, but a tasty article looking at more creative and experimental approaches.