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Old 26-09-06, 09:03 PM   #1
Drakonix
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Default The Clash of Civilizations & the Great Caliphate

This is a somewhat long but interesting read.

It does some poking at both sides.


THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE
By Larry Abraham


It Did Not Start on 9/11

The war we are now facing did not begin on September 11, 2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authorities in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact, Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less.

This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the “ Third Great Jihad” and are doing so within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the Seventh century and their attempts to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of its existence.

No religion in history grew as fast, in its infancy, than did Islam and the reasons for this growth are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad’s death in 632 AD. The Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire was based in Constantinople and trying desperately to keep the power of its early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion. The costs to the average person were unbearable as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied from the state along with the tithes coerced by the Church. What Islam offered was the “carrot or the sword”.

If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didn’t, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making. At the beginning, even the theology was not too hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given their due by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish prophets of the Torah (old testament). Both were called “children of the book”, the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New testaments for Christians and Jews.

With this practical approach to spreading the “word” Islam grew like wild fire, reaching out from the Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the “first” great Jihad and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they had firmly established the religion on the Iberian peninsula. This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.

The “second great jihad” came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all of its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islam’s most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured into warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in “the ways of the Prophet”. By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final and failed attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any further territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into various sheikhdoms, emir dominated principalities, and roving tribes of nomads. However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming its internal failures on anyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival know has Wahhabism which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI. It is this Wahhabi version of Islam which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites. What this sect calls for is the complete and total rejection of anything and everything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and it finds its most glaring practice in the policies of the Afgani Taliban or the Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Its Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is now known as Osama bin Laden, the leader of the “third Jihad”.

Jimmy Carter sets the stage

The strategy for this “holy war” did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the plans for toppling the Shah of Iran back in the early 1970’s and culminated with his exile in 1979. With his plans and programs to “westernize” his country, along with his close ties to the U.S. and subdued acceptance of the State of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.

Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department the revolution was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his arm forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the “Great Caliphate”.

The Great Caliphate

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and finally what they call the “occupied territory” Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and what was attempted in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons.

The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals. 1. The U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. 2. Taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves, and 3. Using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations.
Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the facts that immediately following the 9/11 attack, their first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message to the Jihadists. The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison.

Why Iraq?

The war on Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or his willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known, were serious indications of on-going collaboration, as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait.

What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, world-wide, to “Stop The War”. Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little know politician as the thrust point; Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the “Dean Phenomenon”.

By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the “Hate Bush” liberals, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e. Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November and a new administration come to power we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.

What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I believe that this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors, V.I. Lenin admonished…”two steps forward, one step back”.

A couple of additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church and Carter’s CIA Director, Admiral Stansfield Turner. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. Jimmy Carter is the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the “advice and counsel” of this despicable little hypocrite who now prances around with his Nobel Prize, while attacking President Bush with almost as much venom as his fellow Nobel Laureate, Yassir Arafat.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French.
Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Amid Ben Bella, the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totally twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of “knowing our enemy” the results will be catastrophic.

PART II (May 1, 2004)

Since writing the above, we have witnessed some frightening evidence in support of our hypothesis both internally and in other parts of the world.

The al Qaeda bombing in Madrid has emboldened our enemy into believing it can use terror as an instrument for democratic regime change. Based on what happened there, they may be right.

Kerry and bin Laden on the same page

John Kerry and other leaders of his party constantly refer to the United States as “acting unilaterally.” They give no credit whatsoever to countries like Great Britain, Poland, Italy, Australia or even tiny Honduras for putting their limited armed forces in harm’s way to support the U.S. led coalition in Iraq. It is little wonder that some are considering doing what Spain has done—pulling out. The leaders in these countries have spent considerable political capital in this effort, and have little to show for it as it relates to fostering good will with the American public. Couple that fact with Osama bin Ladin’s latest offer of withholding attacks on those who “quit” the coalition and you have all the elements for a Democrat party fostered “self-fulfilling prophecy” where the U.S. will be totally alone in the pacification of Iraq. John Kerry and the Bush critics persist in the “lie” of the U.S. going it “alone” in Iraq but Osama bin Laden knows differently and will use the Kerry rhetoric to help isolate the U.S. The terrorists now see themselves as political “king-makers”. They may be right.

Another aspect of the “anti-Bush” political axis is how both his political enemies and the main stream media take ghoulish delight in “the body count,” just as they did in the later days of Vietnam. Oh sure, they pay incidental homage to the memory of the young Americans who gave their lives in the greatest threat this country has ever faced, but they do so with all the sincerity of Madonna making a vow of chastity. As the body bags grow in number, they believe, so grows their political prospects. They may be right.

If the Bush administration is further weakened in the months leading up to the November elections, we will witness a heightened al Qaeda offensive in all parts of the world, including our own country, and especially in Iraq and nations surrounding it ,i.e., Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Events within the past few days in Jordan not only make this argument but also point to the possibility of “what happened to the WMDs.”
Iran and Syria are daily growing more overt and bold in their support of insurgents within Iraq, believing that Bush has been so hurt by internal politics that he is powerless to act against them in any meaningful way. They may be right.

The Leftwing initiative, Political Correctness and Our Will to Win

Within our own country we are witnessing and almost insane application of “political correctness.” As the barbarism of radical Islam grows more apparent in the streets of the Middle East from Gaza to Basra, we see a cultural suicide taking place within our own schools and communities.

Our children are being taught from the Koran, our professors are preaching intifadah in their class rooms, and Muslim “call to prayer” loud speakers are blaring out from city halls. The more precarious our very existence becomes, the more our liberal brethren embrace their enemies. It is a Stockholm Syndrome which can only lead to the recruitment of young Muslims who will be willing to duplicate in the West what their co-religionists are doing in the streets of Israel and the market places of Baghdad. The liberal P.C. crowd say nothing about the silence of the Muslim religious leadership as it relates to the carnage of innocents but couldn’t speak out fast enough against the inspiration supplied to tens of millions of Christians by Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. They were put off by the movie’s “violence” and its alleged “fostering of anti-Semitism”. Movies must represent their “reality” as the real thing moves them not at all. Among liberal Jews in America, hatred of George W. Bush is only surpassed by their contempt for Ariel Sharon…Let them explain it, I am at a total loss to do so. Maybe they just miss seeing Bill Clinton smooching Yassir Arafat in the White House Rose Garden.

The “Reverend” Jesse Jackson is now calling the U.S. “guilty of crimes against humanity” as he sets out to mobilize the non-Islamic Left. None of the Democrat leadership says a word in opposition to Jackson’s treason or Hillary’s attacks on the President and U.S. policy in an Arabic newspaper, while in London. You can bet that al Jezeera didn’t miss a beat in their reporting of both events.

The campaign takes its toll

The campaign is seriously hurting Mr. Bush’s leadership role in the War on Terror. While ducking every new book critical of his initiative or trying to counter the partisan nitpicking of the 9/11 Commission, he has persisted in the misbegotten insistence of “installing democracy” in Iraq. Our purpose for being in that beleaguered country should be restricted to one purpose and one purpose only, to stop the expansion of The Third Jihad and provide a base for doing same in the neighboring areas. This can be done by sealing the borders, attacking anything that moves in violation of same and by making it clear to Syria and Iran that any participation on their part will be considered an “act of war”. Let the country be governed by the local tribes, Shiite in the south, Sunni in the central and Kurds in the north with a U.S. pro consul overseeing the military. Oil revenues could be spilt by population allocation. How about installing a Republic…it worked pretty well here with diverse populations.

The very idea that we should spend our sons and daughters blood or our tax dollars on trying to building a “democracy” in the region which has neither a history nor a desire for such, is sheer nonsense. The very essence of Islamic teaching speaks directly against this principle. Continuing on the current path can only result in fostering greater hatred for the “Great Satan”. Force is the only thing which is respected in that part of the world and this force need not be tied to “reform”. I suggest Mr. Rumsfled acquaint himself with a copy of Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars and Sun Tsu’s Art of War. All the tactics and strategies necessary to subdue the Iraqi insurgents can be found in those two military gems.

Please not the UN

Bringing the U.N. to the party will only compound the problem without adding any accountability. The U.N. has been accused of many things over the years, but being a “democratic” institution has never been one of them. Just the latest scandal of the “Oil for Food” program should provide any thinking person with all the evidence they need to keep the U.N. at bay. But this doesn’t seem to bother the likes of the John Kerry’s of the world who prattle on as if the scam doesn’t even exist.

Just one example will make my case; the UN mandate in Israel, which has been in place since 1948. One more salient point needs to be made on this subject. There is no such thing as “The International Community.” There are only individual countries, each with its own agenda which is always self serving. The myth of a higher level of “moral authority” coming out of the UN as been one of the greater lies of the past half century, but it is a lie which persists in spite of a bloody record of hypocrisy, graft, genocide and “perpetual war for perpetual peace.” I have a suggestion for the 9/11 Commission:.Why don’t they look into what the UN was doing before the attack on the World Trade Center? If they do, they will find that exactly one week before, the UN was holding a Conference on Racism in Durbin, South Africa where the delegates voted overwhelmingly to condemn Israel, as “racist and terrorist.” The U.S., Canadian and Israeli delegates walked out in disgust. Nary a word was uttered about Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda, or the Taliban, to say nothing of what was happening in Rwanda while they crunched caviar on toast and washed it down with vintage Champaign. Genocide does not qualify as “racism” according to the UN “morality.” Neither we nor the world needs the UN to muck up what is already a very delicate situation. If given proper leadership every Middle Eastern country named above will throw in with the Coalition, for if they don’t they will be the next targets of the Third Great Jihad and the Great Caliphate. Pakistan is already showing the leadership which others will follow. What do you think moved Kadahaffi to cozy up to the U.S. and Great Britain? He fears the Jihadist more than he hates us.

Evil Does Exist

Our current crises, in meeting the threat of the Third Jihad, is one more example of how most Americans simply refuse to believe there is evil in this world and are willing to grant moral equivalence on any human action. Unless the crime is personalized such as in the case of Lacy Peterson, we lose interest quickly and become bored or at least not involved.

To try and understand what we are facing, look into the eyes of your son or grandson and try to fathom a mind which would take pride in strapping a bomb to his body and sending him out to kill himself and countless innocent people. Or in the case of your daughter or grand daughter, try to imagine a religion which commands you to mutilate her vagina to destroy her sex drive or demands you to stone her to death if she has sexual relations with a man other than of your choosing.

If you can comprehend these facts both intellectually and emotionally, then you will start to understand what we are facing in the months and years ahead, both at home and abroad.

The radicals of Islam will stop at nothing to destroy us and all we stand for. They see this war as their “entry to paradise” and a release from the miserable existence they have built for themselves within the confines of an evil and perverse religion. The Jihadist are NOT like us, nor most of their fellow Muslims. But, like terrorists everywhere they have silenced any criticisms from fellow Muslims through threat and intimidation and have, with the help of the ‘useful idiots” in the West, “created the appearance of popular support”.

If we are incapable of understanding these realities and acting accordingly, within the life time of everyone who reads these words, we will see our cherished way of like cease to exist and chaos become our lot. The Clash of Civilizations is now reaching out and touching all of us. May God grant us the wisdom and the courage to meet the challenge.

http://www.insiderreport.net/clash_1-2.html
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Old 26-09-06, 09:37 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakonix
It does some poking at both sides.
yeah, the left and anyone not on the right.

- js.
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Old 27-09-06, 08:03 AM   #3
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The whole situation speaks to replacing backward, primitive cultures with more evolved ones for the good of everyone. Colonialism had its benefits.

Unfortunately the leftist liberal culture of today believes every culture is equal and must be preserved no matter its brutality and repressiveness and it has bred a generation of moronic "war is not the answer" degenerates without the sense to defend humanity against a newly empowered backward culture that will eliminate virtually all individual freedom and the social evolution that comes from it.

Ironically if the liberals had to give up movies and music along with drugs and alcohol it would not only stimulate them to resistance but it would remove the very factors that lead them to view the world as some fuzzy fantasy that shouldn't be tampered with and bring them into the struggle for survival that is required of every living thing.
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Old 27-09-06, 08:49 AM   #4
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The bottom line is Liberals can not be trusted with National Security...
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Old 27-09-06, 11:44 AM   #5
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seeing how the southern border is still open for anyone to come on in, the "conservatives" cant be trusted either. the bottom line is we as individuals are responsible for our own security and if you think that any form of govt can protect you from evil then you are delusional.



Some hand in hand,
Some gather together in bands,
The bleeding hearts and artists,
Make their stand.
And when theyve given you their all,
Some stagger and fall.
After all its not easy,
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
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Old 27-09-06, 01:51 PM   #6
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floyd, without the resources the government puts to use, how are you or anyone eles able to secure themselves? The framers of our government knew exactly what its purpose would be, and they stated that purpose in the preamble of our Constitution. Read it, and understand that none of the things it lists would be at your disposal without some form of government. If we are in the middle of a great culture clash as the above articles suggest, then we'll need much more than we can each provide for ourselves in order to stave off the jihad. It's not something I'm particularly alarmed about, but still, our nation is fighting with itself instead of its enemies. I wouldn't be surprised if many Americans welcomed the distruction of our culture and our beliefs and that makes securing my self and my family that much more difficult.
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Old 27-09-06, 04:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazer
floyd, without the resources the government puts to use, how are you or anyone eles able to secure themselves?
by resources i assume you mean my tax dollars?

you make it sound like we are helpless without an authority to tell us what to do.

Quote:
The framers of our government knew exactly what its purpose would be, and they stated that purpose in the preamble of our Constitution. Read it, and understand that none of the things it lists would be at your disposal without some form of government.
was there no justce before the united states? was there no domestic tranquility? we would have had all of that if we just paid our outrageous taxes to the queen, but we wanted to represent ourselves and have our own govt. Its getting to that point again where the peoples interests are not represented by our elected leaders, most (not all) of our leaders are bought and paid for by corporations.

Quote:
If we are in the middle of a great culture clash as the above articles suggest, then we'll need much more than we can each provide for ourselves in order to stave off the jihad. It's not something I'm particularly alarmed about, but still, our nation is fighting with itself instead of its enemies. I wouldn't be surprised if many Americans welcomed the distruction of our culture and our beliefs and that makes securing my self and my family that much more difficult.
imo, the reason why there are jihadists and are so pissed off is because our corporations/military industrial complex are in thier backyards trying to dictate democracy to them. just like iran in the 50's and iraq in the 60's they are overthrowing thier govts and trying to put a pro west puppet in place. when the brits carved up the ottoman empire after WW1, they planted the seeds for conflict. now we are reaping what they have sown. to think that we are making the world a safer place by pre emptive shock and awe to disrupt the "jihad" is uniting some pissed of moslems.

its funny how the roman empire crumbled from the inside due to corruption and bad leadership. might history be repating itself again.
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Old 27-09-06, 08:01 PM   #8
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Was that last sentence a question? If it was then the answer is no simply because the USA is not an empire. We don't have client states or colonies that pay tribute to us and we don't have an emperor. If we were an empire we wouldn't have a terrorism problem because we could turn the middle ease into a monument of smoldering craters and we wouldn't have to worry about the repercussions. Things would be easier, but then we'd be more like subjects than citizens, wouldn't we?

No, before the Constitution was ratified there was no justice nor domestic tranquillity. When the revolution concluded our states were surrounded by enemies and sometimes treated each other as such. A second revolution to overthrow the new government had to be put down with military force. The constitutional convention was a response to that sitation, and it established a government meant to represent the people as much, and eventually more than, the states. So whatever corruption you're seeing in our government is a reflection on you and me and every citizen, whether we all vote or not. (On a side note, the taxes we pay now are far more outrageous than anything the British parliment mandated.)

Without a federation of states, and a system of courts, and police, and an army and navy, and roads, schools, welfare systems, and the myriad of other government programs, we would all have to fend for ourselves, not exactly helpless, but certainly unable to repell jihadists who wish an end to the western world.

In my opinion we have the right, simply by existing, by being alive, to defend ourselves, even if that means destroying a culture that turns people into suicide bombers. And the more terrorists that culture produces, the sooner we can destroy it. We could leave them alone, and let the jihad follow us home, for it will not end simply because we're not actively provoking it. Or we could take the fight to them. Either way, this jihad must be endured and a generation must die before a peaceful conclusion is met. It won't happen to your satisfaction in your lifetime, floyd, certainly not before Bush's term ends. The question is do you want our soldiers as your proxy, trained, supplied, and paid by the government, to fight your enemies overseas, or are you as an individual solely responsible for your own security? Don't be surprised if other people disagree with your answer, and please don't call them delusional for doing so.
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Old 28-09-06, 11:25 AM   #9
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The U.S. Global Empire

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html


is this what you mean by defending ourselves? or is it forcing our way of government on different cultures?

perhaps when its all said and done we can turn on the tv to watch the latest reality series, iranian idol.

and its true we are immune, when fact is fiction and tv REALITY
and today the millions cry, we eat and drink while tomorrow they die
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Old 28-09-06, 03:37 PM   #10
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Google: definitions of empire

Pick any definition you like and show me where the USA fits the description. Having almost 1,000 military bases in foreign nations that don't answer to us nor obey our rule does not make us an empire.

And what is so foul about our form of government that no one outside the US should be subjected to it? It works pretty well here, if you ask me. And anything is better than the dictatorships that ruled Afghanistan and Iraq.

Last edited by Mazer : 28-09-06 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 29-09-06, 01:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazer
Google: definitions of empire

Pick any definition you like and show me where the USA fits the description. Having almost 1,000 military bases in foreign nations that don't answer to us nor obey our rule does not make us an empire.
having that much military around the world makes us what then? a kinder gentler empire? using covert methods maybe makes us an empire by proxy?

Quote:
And what is so foul about our form of government that no one outside the US should be subjected to it? It works pretty well here, if you ask me. And anything is better than the dictatorships that ruled Afghanistan and Iraq.
You mean the dictatorships we helped set up in afghanistan and iraq. do you not believe that osama and saddam were taxpayer funded assets of our agencies? Democracy at gunpoint is kind of an oxymoron no? Why are we not concerned about the dictator in Zimbabwe, Somalia, Lybia (we seem to be getting along real well with them) How about Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan? China? dictators all around and full of "muslim extremeists".

1979 was an interesting year in afghanistan, iran and iraq to say the least. Not much has changed since then. Kissinger, Brzezinski, Rumsfeld ect. and the gang seem to still be at thier game of global domination. Now that Wolfowitz is the head honcho of the World Bank(appointed by Bush) im sure it will make things much easier.

Ever read the Grand Chessboard by Zibignew Brzezinski? Its all about power and conquest, err geostrategic imperatives as he calls it. It works well with the Project for the New American Century.

But hey we've been kicking ass for over 200 years, might as well keep doing what we are good at eh.

Edwin Starr's song is wrong, the lyrics should be changed to

WAR
huh
Yeah!
What is it good for?
The Economy - Say it again yall!
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Old 29-09-06, 03:11 PM   #12
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I'm trying to take you seriously, floyd, but you're making it dificult.

Yes, 'democracy at gunpoint' is a self contradction, I wish you would stop using it. Nobody is forcing Iraqis to vote in elections or serve in public office. What we are doing is hunting insurgents who interfere with the civilized people who have volunteered to fill the void that was left when Saddam's government fell. What we are doing is preventing a new dictatorship from replacing the old one while the people govern themselves of their own volition. Give them a little credit; they haven't started a civil war yet, and as time passes it's becoming less likely that they ever will, they haven't given up despite many attempted and a few successful assassinations on public leaders, their police and military forces grow larger and stronger every day, and the press has unprecidented access to the events that happen there. Their progress surprises even myself.
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Old 29-09-06, 03:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mazer
What we are doing is hunting insurgents who interfere with the civilized people who have volunteered to fill the void that was left when Saddam's government fell. What we are doing is preventing a new dictatorship from replacing the old one while the people govern themselves of their own volition. Give them a little credit; they haven't started a civil war yet, and as time passes it's becoming less likely that they ever will, they haven't given up despite many attempted and a few successful assassinations on public leaders, their police and military forces grow larger and stronger every day, and the press has unprecidented access to the events that happen there. Their progress surprises even myself.
this Pollyanna viewpoint, which mirrors that of the administration, is completely unsupported by the facts.

when 71% of iraqis want us to leave, and 60% of them support attacks on US troops, it's a misnomer to label them "insurgents" - we're at war with the majority of the population. the Iraqi press is being targeted for death by the Iraqi government and the American press can't leave the Green Zone unescorted. the country is on the verge of anarchy - average of 100 iraqis are killed every day, with attacks on US troops averaging one every 15 minutes. by any metric you'd care to use, the plight of the average Iraqi is worse than any time in the past three years.

their progress does not surprise me.

edit: let's get an assessment from a a non-kool aid drinker:

Quote:
Iraq situation is dire, Straw admits

Friday September 29, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

The former foreign secretary Jack Straw has described the situation in Iraq as "dire", blaming mistakes made by the US for the escalating crisis.
Mr Straw - now the leader of the Commons - was foreign secretary at the time of the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, and staunchly backed Tony Blair's decision to join the operation.

"The current situation is dire," he said on BBC1's Question Time last night. "I think many mistakes were made after the military action - there is no question about it - by the United States administration.
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Old 29-09-06, 07:35 PM   #14
albed
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Well that settles it then; he likes the word "dire".

As for what the media says the Iraqis want; who gives a fuck? How will their lives be better if the U.S. withdraws? But who gives a fuck about that either? The U.S. military does what's in the interests of the U.S. not what Iraqi opinion polls say.

Give them democracy or give them death.
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Old 29-09-06, 08:48 PM   #15
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Give them democracy or give them death.
lol - that's a great tagline for the war
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Old 29-09-06, 10:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theknife
it's a misnomer to label them "insurgents" - we're at war with the majority of the population.
An insurgent is one who actually attacks an American soldier, not a person who voices support for such attacks in a public opinion poll.

Quote:
Iraqi press is being targeted for death by the Iraqi government and the American press can't leave the Green Zone unescorted.
This is still unprecidented in the last few decades. Current news only seems worse than it was before because there was no news before.

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average of 100 iraqis are killed every day
Don't make it sound worse than it is, far more people die per capita here at home.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications.../2066rank.html
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Old 30-09-06, 01:03 AM   #17
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Give them democracy or give them death

Quote:
Originally Posted by theknife
lol - that's a great tagline for the war
there should be some cake with that right?

i like cake

ice cream

and whut tha tv says
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Old 02-10-06, 08:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by floydian slip
its funny how the roman empire crumbled from the inside due to corruption and bad leadership. might history be repating itself again.
Hold-on there, There is a lot more to the fall of Rome than that, you are taking 1200 years of history and breaking it down in one sentence.

The Romans made a choice, either to remain a free republic or be a superpower. They chose to remain a superpower and to accept the military dictatorship of Julius Caesar and his successors. Once you begin down the path of being a superpower, there is no turning back. When you become a power, you can’t just change your mind one day because you have created to much hatred toward you. You must follow that path to the end, and the Romans chose to follow it to the end. They assumed the burden and created the greatess legacy of any Empire in history. I can go on and on, but one thing a will say and a will quote it, you can make parallels.

You can look to the MiddleEast as one of the turning points,

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We are on patrol today in Iraq. Men and women of the United States armed forces in armored vehicles patrol the streets of Baghdad. They pass in the way of so many who have come before them: the Egyptian charioteers of Ramses II, the Macedonian phalanx of Alexander the Great, the Roman legionnaires of Caesar and Trajan, the Crusaders of Richard the Lion-Hearted, the legionnaires of Napoleon, the Camel Corps of Lawrence of Arabia.

All of these have come through the Middle East. Many of them have come with the best of intentions, by their lights, to bring stability, even freedom to the Middle East. All have passed away. The Middle East has been the graveyard of empires.

In the course of history, we have come to take up that burden. We live in a time as momentous as that of the American Revolution, the Civil War, the days after Pearl Harbor. In each of these watersheds in our history, we have not only taken up the burden, but we have advanced the cause of freedom.

In the American Revolution, we saw to it that a nation could be established under liberty and law. In the American Civil War, we purged ourselves of the great evil of slavery so that we could go on and become a model for the world. In World War II and the Cold War that followed, we advanced the cause of freedom so that today, more people live in freedom than at any other time in history. That is the result of America bearing this burden.

I think that September 11 is just as important a date as Pearl Harbor, and we now advance into a new and dangerous era. Think of Winston Churchill when he said how Britain set out across unknown seas, through uncharted waters towards unknown shores, guided only by the beacon of freedom. We have another guide, and that is history and the lessons of history. For the founders of our country, history was the most important single discipline that every citizen of a free republic should study.
So, Will America follow the path the Romans took or the Path Sparta had taken??

Good read, you can take for what ever it is worth -à http://www.heritage.org/Research/Pol...ophy/hl917.cfm

If you don’t want to read it all…..at least read Rome, Germany, and the Middle East section. It is interesting if you like Roman history.
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Old 02-10-06, 11:51 AM   #19
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Old 02-10-06, 11:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sinner
So, Will America follow the path the Romans took or the Path Sparta had taken??
An interesting question for the situation we're in right now. I stated above that if we don't fight our attackers on foreign soil, they will chase us down and we'll have to fight them on American soil. Our enemies have demonstrated their lack of scruples when it comes to killing civilians, so I think as long as we send our soldiers to meet them we can save lives in the long run. Unfortunately, that may mean we couldn't choose to heed Cyrus' admonishment even if we wanted to. We may have to adopt an imperial government as a means of self preservation. Though I'm sure most Americans want to preserve our republic, and I admit that I lean in that direction, I do think that if Rome could maintain a just and peacful empire for two centuries then we could do it better. This brings me no closer to answering your quesiton, Sinner, but if I had to guess I'd say that when the USA finally admits to itself that it has become an empire, it will have already been an empire for deacdes. If, as multi's link suggests, the 9/11 attacks have resulted in a restructuring of military and political power that will give rise to American imperialism, then we cannot yet call ourselves an empire because our republic couldn't have been fully subverted in only five years.

Edit: Wikipeida has a very informative article on this subject. Critics of American imperialism should read it to get a better sense of exactly what it is they are criticizing.

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