A Generational Committment To Iraq

[theknife]

Condi Rice, on Fox News this morning:

And so the administration, I think, has said to the American people that it is a generational commitment to Iraq. But it is not a generational commitment in military terms; it is a commitment of our support to them, our political support and an understanding that democracy takes time.

a generation is roughly 25 years. now, i was listening pretty carefully during the marketing of the war and thereafter and i'm pretty sure i didn't hear anybody in the administration say "oh, by the way, this whole Iraq thing is going to take 25 years or so"...anybody else hear this?

no, i heard stuff like this:

[M]y belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly. . . (in) weeks rather than months - Dick Cheney, 3/16/03

and this:

It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months... - Donald Rumsfeld - 2/7/03

and this:

The United States is committed to helping Iraq recover from the conflict, but Iraq will not require sustained aid… - Budget Director Mitch Daniel, 3/28/03

no, Condi, the administration actually never said anything like this because if they had, nobody would swallowed all the rest of the shit you shoveled.

[Mazer]

Iraq has some pretty good oil fields, the people are educated, and there's lots of motivation. I still think they'll show signs of becomming self sufficient in a year or two. I dont' think you can actually measure how long a generation is, it's a group of people rather than a span of time. You may have noticed that the 'political pendulum' swings back and forth with the comming and going of each generation, and right now it's swinging toward the conservative side. It probably wasn't just this administration that chose to liberate Iraq as much as this whole generation. And when the pendulum swings again this nation will turn it's back on Iraq and leave them to their own devices. Hopefully before that happens they mature enough to be left alone.

Maybe the message to liberals here is that your turn is comming, but first the rest of us have important work to do, so be patient and don't try to stop us. Help out if you want, give constructive criticism, keep those in power from losing sight of the goal of Iraqi soverignty, adapt to these changes, and most of all keep a positive attitude. You can't stop the tide, but you can ride it, that's what we're doing, and you would do no less if the tide favored you. In the mean time make some improvements to your party's orgainzation to keep wackos like Howard Dean from making it impossible for you to lead responsibly in the future.

[albed]

SSSHHHHHHHHH Whose side are you on Mazer?


Howard Dean is a great man and a terrific leader.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Iraq has some pretty good oil fields, the people are educated, and there's lots of motivation. I still think they'll show signs of becomming self sufficient in a year or two. I dont' think you can actually measure how long a generation is, it's a group of people rather than a span of time. You may have noticed that the 'political pendulum' swings back and forth with the comming and going of each generation, and right now it's swinging toward the conservative side. It probably wasn't just this administration that chose to liberate Iraq as much as this whole generation. And when the pendulum swings again this nation will turn it's back on Iraq and leave them to their own devices. Hopefully before that happens they mature enough to be left alone.

Maybe the message to liberals here is that your turn is comming, but first the rest of us have important work to do, so be patient and don't try to stop us. Help out if you want, give constructive criticism, keep those in power from losing sight of the goal of Iraqi soverignty, adapt to these changes, and most of all keep a positive attitude. You can't stop the tide, but you can ride it, that's what we're doing, and you would do no less if the tide favored you. In the mean time make some improvements to your party's orgainzation to keep wackos like Howard Dean from making it impossible for you to lead responsibly in the future.

no, a generation is actually a time span:

generation - The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring

so obviously, since this interval could be anywhere from 15 to 50 years, 25 years is a reasonable average. since there is no foreseeable end to the bloodshed, and since neither you nor the President or the Vice-President can come up with anything more concrete than to dress the whole fiasco up as something resembling missionary work (save the poor Iraqis from themselves), there is little reason to assume the US future in Iraq holds anything other than further bloodshed, deceit, corruption, misappropriation of funds ($9 billion missing so far), profiteering etc.

"showing signs of becoming self-sufficient in a year or two" is not a good reason for young Americans to keep dying - i would suggest if you feel otherwise, you should down and see your local army recruiter because they desperately need young believers like yourself.

but before you put your life in the hands of the leaders who brought us this train wreck, you might want to check out a more realistic assessment of the situation from top Senate Republican Chuck Hagel:

"The White House is completely disconnected from reality," said Hagel. "It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq," said Hagel, who added that increasingly, fellow Republicans are coming to share his view.

listen to your party - your leaders are lost.

[Mazer]

Selective definition is a poor defense of your position. Here's the entire entry from the link you gave:

1. All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor: Mother and daughters represent two generations.
2. Biology. A form or stage in the life cycle of an organism: asexual generation of a fern.
3. The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.
4. a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
   b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).
5. a. A stage or period of sequential technological development and innovation.
   b. A class of objects derived from a preceding class: a new generation of computers.
6. The formation of a line or geometric figure by the movement of a point or line.
7. The act or process of generating; origination, production, or procreation.

I guess we're both right, nither defintion of the word is exclusive. But selecting a time frame to define a generation is a little more difficult. While people can bear children when they're as young as 13, the oldest woman to give birth was 66, and men can be fertile up into their 80's or 90's. I'll accept your average of 25 years, it seem to be the average period of that pendulum I mentioned. Anyway, we can parse semantics all you like, but you can't possibly know what Secetary Rice meant when she used that term, and I'm not sure I know either.

If you're so worried about the plight of this generation then you should run a "Don't Drink and Drive/Buckle Up for Safety" campaign, you'll save more lives that way. If I joined the military and went to Iraq I'd be more likely to be sued by the RIAA for filesharing than to be killed.

"It's like they're just making it up as they go along," said Hagel.

Wait, I thought you said they had been planning this since 9/11. Is Hagel right or are the conspiracy theorists right?

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Selective definition is a poor defense of your position. Here's the entire entry from the link you gave:

1. All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor: Mother and daughters represent two generations.
2. Biology. A form or stage in the life cycle of an organism: asexual generation of a fern.
3. The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.
4. a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
   b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).
5. a. A stage or period of sequential technological development and innovation.
   b. A class of objects derived from a preceding class: a new generation of computers.
6. The formation of a line or geometric figure by the movement of a point or line.
7. The act or process of generating; origination, production, or procreation.

I guess we're both right, nither defintion of the word is exclusive. But selecting a time frame to define a generation is a little more difficult. While people can bear children when they're as young as 13, the oldest woman to give birth was 66, and men can be fertile up into their 80's or 90's. I'll accept your average of 25 years, it seem to be the average period of that pendulum I mentioned. Anyway, we can parse semantics all you like, but you can't possibly know what Secetary Rice meant when she used that term, and I'm not sure I know either.

If you're so worried about the plight of this generation then you should run a "Don't Drink and Drive/Buckle Up for Safety" campaign, you'll save more lives that way. If I joined the military and went to Iraq I'd be more likely to be sued by the RIAA for filesharing than to be killed.


Wait, I thought you said they had been planning this since 9/11. Is Hagel right or are the conspiracy theorists right?

actually, i know exactly what Secretary Rice means: "generational commitment"' means committed for a generation - a euphemism for a "one way or the other, we'll be there for a couple of decades, give or take a few years". it's phrased as such to blunt the impact of the assessment.

and, like so many others, your enthusiasm for the mission in Iraq exists only to the extent that people other than yourself actually carry it out. we can only hope, for their sake, that Secretary Rice is wrong.

[Mazer]

Please don't question my reasons for supporting this war, or my reasons for staying home, because it's beneath you. I don't doubt that you support those troops every bit as much as I do, and I agree that they need to come home as soon as possible. But I am certain those soldiers understand the terms of their commitment, and whether or not they really want to be there they'll fulfill those terms. By now there are many soldiers there who signed up after the war started and they knew full well what they were getting themselves into. That a generation is willing to make such a commiment demonstrates the merit many young volunteers see in this struggle. It was their decisions as free citizens to enlist during wartime, and for that their loyalty is not to be questioned.

[albed]

Let's try being consistant knife. People are also being killed and maimed pursuing the dangerous activity of surfing; drownings, shark attacks....and it's been going on for generations. Why don't you try to stop that useless loss of human life? It's not even helping any poor, oppressed people.

[Sinner]

Please don't question my reasons for supporting this war, or my reasons for staying home, because it's beneath you. I don't doubt that you support those troops every bit as much as I do, and I agree that they need to come home as soon as possible.

Nice, and I agree 100%.

But I am certain those soldiers understand the terms of their commitment, and whether or not they really want to be there they'll fulfill those terms. By now there are many soldiers there who signed up after the war started and they knew full well what they were getting themselves into. That a generation is willing to make such a commiment demonstrates the merit many young volunteers see in this struggle. It was their decisions as free citizens to enlist during wartime, and for that their loyalty is not to be questioned.

Again well said, but he will not understand it. Some people rise up when their country calls on them and some run to Canada or defect to North Korea. One person is not better then the other, just different.

This - only people who are or have been to Iraq to fight should support this administration’s decision to go into Iraq is garbage. I believe 52,000,000 plus people voted for Bush the last election.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Sinner

Nice, and I agree 100%.

Again well said, but he will not understand it. Some people rise up when their country calls on them and some run to Canada or defect to North Korea. One person is not better then the other, just different.

This - only people who are or have been to Iraq to fight should support this administration’s decision to go into Iraq is garbage. I believe 52,000,000 plus people voted for Bush the last election.

well, Mazer drifted well off my point, and Sinner got it completely backward - let's try and simplify this, shall we?

after 3 years in Iraq, recruitment is down 40%, soldiers are not re-enlisting, and attrition is high. the army is stretched thin and desperately needs people, period. so, isn't it time that those people who believe in this mission, those who are young and able-bodied, those who think it is a good and righteous war - isn't it time for those people to step up to the plate and enlist? and if not, why not? isn't freeing the Iraqi people worth the sacrifice? and if it's not worth it for you, why should it be worth for anyone else?

isn't it interesting that the president, who can focus on a Social Security problem 40 years out, hasn't spoken a word to encourage enlistment to help a problem that is happening right now, for a war he started? and all the war preachers, the Limbaughs and the Hannitys, never urge their faithful to enlist? could it be because Iraq is a one-way ticket to hell for no apparent reason and, and deep down, everybody knows it?

These War Preachers, Politicians, War Pundits, and 101st Fighting Keyboarders -- they like to talk a tough game, but they don't have the balls to tell their readers, viewers, and supporters to head down to their local recruitment office - and they certainly don't have the balls to enlist themselves.

Mazer, i'm not questioning your reasons for supporting this war or your reasons for staying home - i'm questioning your reasons for supporting this war and staying home. now, it's a rhetorical question and certainly none of my business whatsoever - but that doesn't make the question any less valid.

[albed]

Shit, now I can't support my favorite football team cause I don't play.


You ruin everything knife.

[Mazer]

Dave Barry comes to mind...

Sports radio talk show host:

"Where are the Gator fans now? All you Gators call when you WIN, but now that you LOSE, you don't have the guts."

Listener calls in:

"I'm a Gator fan. And I'm calling."
"And what do you have to say?"
"You said we didn't have the guts to call, so I'm calling."
"Yeah, OK, and so what do you have to say?"
"I'm saying, here I am. I'm calling."
"That's it? You're calling to say you're calling?"
"You said we didn't have the guts."
"Because you DON'T have the guts. All week I had all these Gator fans on here, talking trash, and now they run and hide."
"Well, I'M calling."
"OK, so what's your point?"
"My point is, you said we didn 't have the guts to call, so I'm..."

Half an hour later:

"...point is that all these Gators ever do is talk trash, and then when they lose, you don't hear a peep out of 'em."
"Well, I'M a Gator, OK? I'm a Gator, and I'm talkin' to you right now, so what's your problem?"
"My problem is that you weren't calling until I SAID no Gators were calling. THEN all of a sudden there's all these Gators calling."
"I would of called before. I'm not afraid to call."
"But you DIDN'T call. You're calling now, but before I SAID there were no Gators calling, there were no Gators calling, including you."
"OK, but I'm calling, OK? You hear me on the phone now, right? I'm a Gator, and I'm..."

And an other hour goes by:

"...not hearing what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, when they lose—not now, tonight, but when they play a game and LOSE—then I don't hear a peep from Gator fans."
"Well, you 're not hearing what I'M saying. I'm saying that I'M a Gator fan, and I'm calling you now, OK? I'm talking on the phone right..."

[Sinner]

well, Mazer drifted well off my point, and Sinner got it completely backward - let's try and simplify this, shall we?

and, like so many others, your enthusiasm for the mission in Iraq exists only to the extent that people other than yourself actually carry it out.

Explain to me if you can what I got completely backward??

after 3 years in Iraq, recruitment is down 40%, soldiers are not re-enlisting, and attrition is high. the army is stretched thin and desperately needs people, period. so, isn't it time that those people who believe in this mission, those who are young and able-bodied, those who think it is a good and righteous war - isn't it time for those people to step up to the plate and enlist? and if not, why not? isn't freeing the Iraqi people worth the sacrifice? and if it's not worth it for you, why should it be worth for anyone else?

40%? Only in one month which was March, in April they were down 16%, Maybe you should ask, “Why?….Why are the recruitment numbers down? I doubt it only because of the insurgents in Iraq and if it is, God help us. Of Course some will not join for that reason but they shouldn’t be in the Military anyways. It is my understanding that it is the Army which is down on recruitment, the Air Force and Marines for example are right where they should be. I think the Media is partly to blame, they portray the US Military as the bad guys. Oh they did this and that to the Koran, they abused prisoners, etc. Rarely do you hear anything good come out of Iraq. I think the other problem is the pay. If you have a family and a mortgage payment, why would you join if it will not pay the bills and provide a good living for your family. People are still joining, so men and women are stepping up to the plate.

Yes freeing the Iraqi people is worth it, but Islam is stuck in the 13th century at best and it is going to be very tough to build a free nation in Iraq, Iraq will never be free like America in my opinion. Iraq may become as free as the Muslim culture will produce. Or, it may sink in tribal civil war. A quote – “Liberty prospers under stability and security. Liberty doesn’t create stability and security. Remember the French and Russian Revolutions, WW I and, especially, America’s Civil War. Elections everywhere won’t bring peace. Ideas will. Until Islam changes or Muslims convert, a minority of Muslims will threaten stability and security.” –

I will add this awell

Having spent 10 years in the Army (Infantry both before and after OCS), I have friends who are still serving. Based on comments I’ve heard from some of them in the last few months, you have hit the nail in the head as to one of the major factors in the recruiting shortfall.

While many of your more liberal readers have come on here and commented about nobody wanting to die for a questionable cause, etc., they are wrong. Sure there are always a few who will not join for fear of death or injury. There are a few who will not join for reasons of not wanting to get stuck on extended tours away from home and family (although this is not really much of a factor except for guard and reserve units).

Suprising as it may be to a lot of your liberal readers, there are more than enough gung-ho patriotic young people to fill the ranks of all the services (just look at the Marine Corps who exceeded their recruiting goals while seemingly bearing more than their share of casualties). The possibility of being killed or injured is not the big problem liberals consider it to be, because most young people have the “it won’t happen to me” mindset.

The “questionable cause” line of thinking does not come into play because it is not shared by the majority of the young people who would be recruiting candidates in the first place. This was so even during the Vietnam War when all the service branches including the Army and Marines still had a number of volunteers signing up, on top of what they obtained by way of the draft.

The biggest factors are the highly publicized perceived persecution of service members for honest mistakes in the heat of combat, mistakes that recruit candidates can identify with. Also, the constant negative press about what’s going on over there is starting to affect morale, and many young people are in contact with friends and relatives who are serving at this time and telling them that the news coverage has it wrong.

The typical recruit wants to be thought of as a hero not something on the order of a criminal. The hype that the media and the left have pursued over alleged torture of books (?) and our consequent kid glove (literally) handling of prisoners and their BELONGINGS certainly has had an impact.

The media and the left in this country are still stuck in the midset of Vietnam, where they pulled off what amounted an off battlefield defeat of the United States military. For some reason they seem obsessed with trying to acheive that goal again, and if they are allowed to continue with the same intensity that they are currently exhibiting, they just might accomplish that goal.

A final factor is the continued low unemployment rate we are currently experiencing. Despite what the left would like us to believe, the economy is good and that always cuts into recruitment whether in peacetime or wartime.


Comment by Montie

[theknife]

of course. it's all the media's fault. if they could just stop reporting the news, everything would be fine.

[Sinner]

I like how you ignore the big picture and focus on the little things, pick one or two lines out of paragraphs and twist them to fit your little little world.


So where does it say the media is completely at fault? I don't see it.


Stick to catching waves dude! Hang loose!!!!

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Sinner

I like how you ignore the big picture and focus on the little things, pick one or two lines out of paragraphs and twist them to fit your little little world.


So where does it say the media is completely at fault? I don't see it.

your new friend montie sees it that way (although "completely" was your addition). still, he goes on about it at lenght:

The biggest factors are the highly publicized perceived persecution of service members for honest mistakes in the heat of combat, mistakes that recruit candidates can identify with. Also, the constant negative press about what’s going on over there is starting to affect morale, and many young people are in contact with friends and relatives who are serving at this time and telling them that the news coverage has it wrong.

The typical recruit wants to be thought of as a hero not something on the order of a criminal. The hype that the media and the left have pursued over alleged torture of books (?) and our consequent kid glove (literally) handling of prisoners and their BELONGINGS certainly has had an impact.

The media and the left in this country are still stuck in the midset of Vietnam, where they pulled off what amounted an off battlefield defeat of the United States military. For some reason they seem obsessed with trying to acheive that goal again, and if they are allowed to continue with the same intensity that they are currently exhibiting, they just might accomplish that goal.

but why recruitment is declining is irrelevant, for the purposes of this particular thread. we all know it's down - the question is: what are the assorted Bush apologists doing about it?

[albed]

Why can't you just be happy for knife Sinner?



Bush is trying to make the world a better place and every bit of difficulty adds a ray of sunshine to tk's life.



Haven't you noticed how much more cheerful he's become since the election.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by theknife

but why recruitment is declining is irrelevant, for the purposes of this particular thread. we all know it's down - the question is: what are the assorted Bush apologists doing about it?

How do you fix this recruitment problem as you see it if you don't know WHY fewer people are enlisting?

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by albed

Why can't you just be happy for knife Sinner?



Bush is trying to make the world a better place and every bit of difficulty adds a ray of sunshine to tk's life.



Haven't you noticed how much more cheerful he's become since the election.

Yes, and I guess democrats don't fall into the "101st Fighting Keyboarders", we could just call them the 101st propagandist Keyboarders.

[theknife]

Young Republican National Conference meets in Las Vegas, July 6-9...liberal blog Crooks & Liars tried to place an ad in thier official program, urging young Republicans to enlist and support the war effort. the ad was refused with the following explanation:

We are sorry but we must regretfully reject this advertisement. We feel that the tone of the message is too negative

.