Israelis open fire on crowds in Gaza

[Sinner]

The Israeli army has opened fire on a crowd of Palestinian demonstrators in the town of Rafah in southern Gaza.



At least 10 people were killed, though some reports put the number of casualties higher.

Several children were among the dead, and more than 50 people were injured, many seriously, Palestinian medical workers said.

Thousands of people were demonstrating against a massive Israeli operation in the refugee camp on the edge of Rafah.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3728681.stm


Amnesty Urges Spain To Halt Arms Sale To Israel

Few hours after Amnesty International urged his government to stop arms sale to Israel, Prime Minister Luis Rodriguez Zapatero and his Palestinian counterpart Ahmad Qorei condemned Wednesday, May 19, Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip.

"Peace requires an immediate ceasefire," the leaders said in turn at a press conference after an Israeli airstrike killed at least 10 Palestinians in Rafah, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Zapatero lambasted Israel for embarking on actions that would lead down "a negative path for peace."

"Peace requires a ceasefire, respecting the roadmap and this is what the Spanish government is calling for and what the international community wants," he said.

Qorei, for his part, accused the Israeli government of not wanting a peace settlement in the region.

"These crimes which are being committed against our people on a daily basis ...show that that there is no desire for peace on the part of the Israeli government," he said.

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20040519091617733

[miss_silver]

IMHO Sinner

This war will never stop until there's is no plaestinians or israelies left alive This was always a no win situation and israel will not stop until there is no palestinians left or until their US funds runs out. The palestinians will never give up until they are all dead or until the US funds runs out.

It truly is a no win situation

[schmooky007]

first of all, they didn't intentionally fire at people. a tank crew shot 4 shells from the back at a building where 4 terrorists were seen hiding and apparently one of the shells or parts of it hit in the middle in the crowd. the western and arab press made it sound as though it was a deliberate act and it wasn't. the palestinian bullshit patrol immediately took over the scene, saying to the worldwide press that at least 30 people were killed. israel said only 7. today a palestinian doctor finally revised the count which agrees with the israeli claim.

second, the reason why this operation is taking place is because palestinian terrorist groups have received a shipment of anti-tank missiles and katyusha rockets waiting for pickup in egypt, which they were planning on smuggling through the tunnels in rafah. these weapons can hit major israeli cities if launched from gaza. israel advised the palestinian authority about this and arafat refused to act. so once again israel has to take self defense action, which it is fully entitled to under international law, to prevent terrorists from targeting israeli cities with sophisticated weapons.

[Wenchie]

Originally posted by schmooky007
. the palestinian bullshit patrol immediately took over the scene, saying to the worldwide press that at least 30 people were killed. israel said only 7. today a palestinian doctor finally revised the count which agrees with the israeli claim.

the death toll from the protest is about 10 which is what the press and Palestinians are reporting....with around 40+ injured...
The report of 30 killed was from the previous attack which is what sparked the protest.

more

Israeli forces fired tank shells into a peaceful Palestinian protest during the ongoing assault on Rafah refugee camp yesterday, killing at least 10 people - mostly children - and critically wounding many others.
The army described the incident as "very grave", claimed it had only fired "warning shots" and said there was no intention to harm civilians. But it attempted to shift responsibility for the carnage to the several thousand demonstrators by saying some were armed.

However, no weapons were visible as the crowd walked through the heart of Rafah trailed by children.

Witnesses described seeing children soaked in blood and men with their intestines hanging out.

The dead included 12-year-old Waleed Abo Kamir, Mahmoud Mansour, 13, and Mobark Hasbash, 15. Doctors said that four other bodies brought to the morgue and not immediately identified appeared to be teenagers.

The Israeli army has killed 33 Palestinians in Rafah over the past two days, some of the highest casualties of the present intifada. More than half of the dead are civilians and at least seven of them children.

more

[multi]

from an israeli news source:

Yesha rabbi: IDF allowed to hurt civilians
The chairman of the Yesha rabbinical council, rabbi Dov Lior, on Wednesday said that the Israel Defense Forces are allowed to hurt so called innocent civilians during warfare.

"The law of our Torah is to have mercy on our soldiers and to save them. This is the real moral behind Israel's Torah and we must not feel guilty due to foreign morals," he said.

A similar ruling was made in the past by rabbi Lior on the backdrop of the fighting at the Jenin refugee camp.

Meretz MK Ran Cohen, in response to Lior's statement, said Wednesday that "Dov Lior puts to shame the concept of rabbi, Judaism, Zionism and all of Israel's citizens... woe to us that such a negative element has grown among us, and we should be ashamed that his opinion is accepted and even favored by certain groups in Israel," he said.

you supporters of israel say that the arabs are barbaric..
ffs
their preists actualy say shit like that , man that is just plain backward..

fucn worse than witch doctors..

burn those women and children they have the spirit of evil in them..

least there is a small minority in israel willing to speak out at this kind of attitude..

[schmooky007]

Originally posted by Wenchie
the death toll from the protest is about 10 which is what the press and Palestinians are reporting....with around 40+ injured...
The report of 30 killed was from the previous attack which is what sparked the protest.

incorrect.. the international "protest" was started to prevent israel from widening the philadelphia corridor. when the tank shell hit the demonstrators, the media worldwide reported 30 people killed in that attack, a figure that was grossly exaggerated. the same happened in jenin in 2002. palestinians and the media reported over 500 killed when in fact only 50, most of them militants fighting, were killed. no apology was issued by any publication for that false story as well as no retractions. a documentary was recently made and aired here in canada about the pathetic way the international press covered the jenin incident. most of the culprits, the authors, the editors, refused to appear on camera to give their side of the story despite being proved wrong by a UN report. the guardian (one of the sources you quoted), the independent, BBC news, all of them refused to appear.

[Squid]

Originally posted by miss_silver
IMHO Sinner

This war will never stop until there's is no plaestinians or israelies left alive This was always a no win situation and israel will not stop until there is no palestinians left or until their US funds runs out. The palestinians will never give up until they are all dead or until the US funds runs out.

It truly is a no win situation

most idiotic post ever.

[miss_silver]

Originally posted by Squid
most idiotic post ever.

Don't like my post, don't reply.

oh, and your fucking "tard gif" says it all. wanna insult ppl squid? then don't be a pussy about it and do it right

[Wenchie]

Originally posted by schmooky007
. when the tank shell hit the demonstrators, the media worldwide reported 30 people killed in that attack, a figure that was grossly exaggerated.

I can only find reports putting the death toll for the protest march at between 7 and 10....
Maybe you have a link to your 'media worldwide' sources?

the same happened in jenin in 2002. palestinians and the media reported over 500 killed when in fact only 50, most of them militants fighting, were killed.

A figure of about 100 was initially put forth by an IDF spokesperson.....the figure of 500 was suggested by Erekat and was largely reported by world media as an 'alleged' figure that it was unable to either confirm or deny ......perhaps had the media been allowed access to jenin earlier they would have been able to refute the claim by Erekat.

no apology was issued by any publication for that false story as well as no retractions.

a quick google turned up an apology from Phil Reeves of The Independent posted on 3rd August 2002

a documentary was recently made and aired here in canada about the pathetic way the international press covered the jenin incident. most of the culprits, the authors, the editors, refused to appear on camera to give their side of the story despite being proved wrong by a UN report. the guardian (one of the sources you quoted), the independent, BBC news, all of them refused to appear.

The UN report was compiled from second hand sources as they were denied access to the site......I wouldnt place too much weight on it.
As for the media refusing to appear in the doco.....given the past treatment of journalists by Israelis they may just have felt it in their best interests not to comment....who knows....

[schmooky007]

Originally posted by Wenchie
I can only find reports putting the death toll for the protest march at between 7 and 10....
Maybe you have a link to your 'media worldwide' sources?

most of them have already changed the figure and it was done only after a palestinian doctor from the hospital where the bodies were brought confirmed that only 8 palestinians were killed. on the day of this incident, CNN and BBC (the TV stations, which report differently from their websites) reported "dozens" dead. this figure was eventually taken down to 30, 15, 12, 10, and so forth.. israel from the very beginning said only 8 were killed, yet that was of little importance to the media.. 20, 30 has a nicer ring to it.

A figure of about 100 was initially put forth by an IDF spokesperson.....the figure of 500 was suggested by Erekat and was largely reported by world media as an 'alleged' figure that it was unable to either confirm or deny

yet they reported it anyway.. they flooded the airwaves and newspapers all over the world with 500 and 600 dead without any proof. 500 or 600 innocent people killed in a cramped refugee camp by the mighty israeli army now that's the kind of headline that sells.

perhaps had the media been allowed access to jenin earlier they would have been able to refute the claim by Erekat.

the media was never banned from the camp. they were not allowed into certain areas where there was heavy fighting between troops and militants for their own protection and not because of israel's intention to hide anything.

a quick google turned up an apology from Phil Reeves of The Independent posted on 3rd August 2002

this was not an apology. he said journalists were "sometimes" wrong but that it's israel's fault we were wrong. that's after he compared what was going on in jenin to genocide in cambodia. he didn't bother to admit the real reason for the false reporting was the media's perception of the worst case scenario without any evidence, and that the images of tanks and armed soldiers inside a poor refugee camp would surely cause hundreds if not thousands of casualties. the bottomline is the media jumped the gun. they reported figures that were grossly inaccurate and they should apologize unequivocally and not simply shift the blame for their shitty reporting to israel.

The UN report was compiled from second hand sources as they were denied access to the site......I wouldnt place too much weight on it.

what are you talking about? the report was compiled from statements of UN officials who were at the scene, the palestinian red crescent, human right groups who had their people on the scene, and representatives from five different "neutral" countries. the report was accepted by kofi annan.. no massacres took place, the 500 or so dead is fiction.. 52 palestinians, most of them armed terrorists, and 24 israeli soldiers were killed.

As for the media refusing to appear in the doco.....given the past treatment of journalists by Israelis they may just have felt it in their best interests not to comment....who knows....

yeah i'm sure that's the reason

[Wenchie]

Originally posted by schmooky007 most of them have already changed the figure and it was done only after a palestinian doctor from the hospital where the bodies were brought confirmed that only 8 palestinians were killed. on the day of this incident, CNN and BBC (the TV stations, which report differently from their websites) reported "dozens" dead. this figure was eventually taken down to 30, 15, 12, 10, and so forth.. israel from the very beginning said only 8 were killed, yet that was of little importance to the media.. 20, 30 has a nicer ring to it.

At the risk of sounding impolite.......

thats absolute rubbish.

yet they reported it anyway.. they flooded the airwaves and newspapers all over the world with 500 and 600 dead without any proof. 500 or 600 innocent people killed in a cramped refugee camp by the mighty israeli army now that's the kind of headline that sells

The report of " the number of Palestinian casualties at around 100 in Jenin" as I said was put forth by Brigadier General Ron Kitrey, Spokesperson for the IDF ......which he at a later time clarified to mean dead and wounded.
Again.....the reports of '500 deaths' were largely reported as 'alleged by Palestinians' as opposed to being reported as hard cold fact.......and again this could possibly have been avoided had journalists had access to the site.

the media was never banned from the camp. they were not allowed into certain areas where there was heavy fighting between troops and militants for their own protection and not because of israel's intention to hide anything.

the media was barred from Jenin for approximately 2 weeks ( 3rd - 17th April) and initially after that 'selected' journalists were given 'restricted' access in that they were allowed to 'tour' the camp under IDF supervision

what are you talking about? the report was compiled from statements of UN officials who were at the scene, the palestinian red crescent, human right groups who had their people on the scene, and representatives from five different "neutral" countries. the report was accepted by kofi annan..

Tenth emergency special session
Agenda item 5
Illegal Israeli actions in Occupied East Jerusalem
and the rest of the Occupied Palestinian Territory

Report of the Secretary-General prepared pursuant
to General Assembly resolution ES-10/10

This report was prepared on the basis of General Assembly resolution ES-10/10, adopted on 7 May 2002, in which the Assembly requested the Secretary-General to present a report, drawing upon the available resources and information, on the recent events that took place in Jenin and other Palestinian cities. The General Assembly requested the report following the disbandment of the United Nations fact-finding team that had been convened by the Secretary-General in response to Security Council resolution 1405 (2002) (2002) of 19 April 2002.

The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information, including submissions from five United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations. The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so. In the absence of a response from Israel, the United Nations has relied on public statements of Israeli officials and publicly available documents of the Government of Israel relevant to the request in resolution ES-10/10.

no massacres took place

that depends on your definition of the word itself

the 500 or so dead is fiction..

true

52 palestinians, most of them armed terrorists,

around half of them armed and half civilians

[schmooky007]

Originally posted by Wenchie
At the risk of sounding impolite.......

thats absolute rubbish.

check the daily independent's website for that date. there's a headline that says "dozens killed in rafah" and when you click on the article the heading reads "8 killed in rafah". this is just one example of how online publications revise their articles as more facts come out.

Again.....the reports of '500 deaths' were largely reported as 'alleged by Palestinians' as opposed to being reported as hard cold fact.......and again this could possibly have been avoided had journalists had access to the site.

what a load of crap! journalists from around the world reported rumours as factual information. while the palestinians alleged that 500 people were killed, the media jumped to their own conclusions with reports of genocide and mass graves, equating what's taking place in jenin to genocide in cambodia and bosnia even though this was clearly not the case.

a few examples of what the press printed:

- "We are talking here of massacre, and a cover-up, of genocide..." (london evening standard)

- "Rarely, in more than a decade of war reporting from Bosnia, Chechnya, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, have I seen such deliberate destruction, such disrespect for human life." (london times)

- "Israel's actions in Jenin were every bit as repellent as Osama Bin Laden's attack on New York on September 11." (the guardian)

- "I personally saw 30 Palestinian corpses at the hospital on April the 20th, and with dozens of other foreign reporters, watched them being buried at a mass grave just up the road from the hospital... Just as in Tiananmen Square, the power of the gun and the tank ensured there was no proper body count or accounting. Just as happened in Tiananmen Square, the uninformed and those with their own agenda, are now claiming there was no massacre. There was a massacre, a considerable number of human beings were indiscriminately and unnecessarily slaughtered..." (peter cave, australia's ABC)

the story was never proved as no mass graves were found, and if reporters like peter cave really wanted to provide their viewers with impartial coverage they could have went to abu kabir to check on the corpses of the 30 israeli civilians who were blown to pieces on the eve of passover just two weeks earlier. THAT he'll actually find. but of course he and literally everybody else had no intentions of doing so. all this rhetoric from the media proves beyond doubt that not only the reports about what happened in jenin were flawed and biased, but most of them were not based on information coming out of the PA so you can't say the press was saying what the palestinians were alleging. these were all fabricated lies that were brought upon by the media's perception of the palestinians as victims du jour and the israelis as the aggressors.

the media was barred from Jenin for approximately 2 weeks ( 3rd - 17th April) and initially after that 'selected' journalists were given 'restricted' access in that they were allowed to 'tour' the camp under IDF supervision

this is another myth. the media was never banned from jenin. civilians were banned from certain small areas of the camp for their own protection and not because israel was trying to hide anything. once the operation completed and the dust settled, reporters were surprised to find that their exaggerated claims were unfounded. the new york times interviewed dozens of palestinians in the camp and found "no solid evidence of large-scale deliberate killing of civilians", and according to the washington post, "no evidence has surfaced to support allegations ... of large-scale massacres or executions by Israeli troops."

The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information, including submissions from five United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations. The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so. In the absence of a response from Israel, the United Nations has relied on public statements of Israeli officials and publicly available documents of the Government of Israel relevant to the request in resolution ES-10/10.

all the relevant palestinian, UN, and human rights organizations contributed to the report. israel didn't participate in the inquiry because it already provided most of the information it had to the public. despite this, convinced that a massacre in jenin indeed took place, the international community shunned the israeli figures. initially the report gave the palestinians the full exposure they wanted, and it started with their claims of over 500 palestinians killed. eventually the palestinian claims proved to be an outright lie and the UN report ultimately agreed with the israeli figures. on the day the UN released its report on jenin and kofi annan accepted the findings, a few journalists and editors issued pathetic excuses for their flawed coverage.

[Sinner]

Was this story false too????....I don't think so.....


Israeli bulldozer kills American protester

Israeli bulldozer runs over 23-year-old woman
Tuesday, March 25, 2003 Posted: 4:19 PM EST (2119 GMT)

RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

[pisser]

Score one for Israel, yeah!

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by Sinner

Was this story false too????....I don't think so.....


Israeli bulldozer kills American protester

Israeli bulldozer runs over 23-year-old woman
Tuesday, March 25, 2003 Posted: 4:19 PM EST (2119 GMT)

RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

Don't think it's a false story, even span sais once I should like her. Got a web site that depicts the whole thing

The Israeli bulldozer ran over her and then backed up, crushing her chest and skull.

link

16:45-17:00

One bulldozer, serial number 949623, began to work near the house of a physician who is a friend of ours, and in whose house Rachel and other activists often stayed. While we occupied the other structures directly west (the closest was less than 5 meters away and the furthest was less than
25 meters away), Rachel sat down in the pathway of the bulldozer. I was elevated about 2 meters above the ground, and had a clear view of the action happening about 20 meters away. Still wearing her fluorescent jacket, she sat down at least 15 meters in front of the bulldozer, and began waving her arms and shouting, just as activists had successfully done dozens of times that day. The bulldozer continued driving forward headed straight for Rachel. When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer. She got so high onto it that she was at eye-level with the cab of the bulldozer. Her head and upper torso were above the bulldozer's blade, and the bulldozer driver and co-operator could clearly see her. Despite this, he continued forward, which pulled her legs into the pile of rubble, and pulled her down out of view of the diver. If he'd stopped at this point, he may have only broken her legs, but he continued forward, which pulled her underneath the bulldozer. We ran towards him, and waved our arms and shouted, one activist with the megaphone. But the bulldozer driver continued forward, until Rachel was underneath the central section of the bulldozer. At this point, it was more than clear that she was nowhere but underneath the bulldozer, there was simply nowhere else she could have been, as she had not appeared on either side of the bulldozer, and could not have stayed in front of it that long without being crushed. Despite the obviousness of her position, the bulldozer began to reverse, without lifting its blade, and drug the blade over her body again. He continued to reverse until he was on the boarder strip, about 100 meters away, and left her crushed body in the sand. Three activists ran to her and began administering first-responder medical treatment. Her body was in a mangled position, her face was very bloody, and her skin was turning blue. She said, "My back is broken!",
but nothing else. The three activists took care to keep her neck straight, and turned her to her side in case of vomit or blood from the mouth. She was showing signs of brain hemridging (I found out later from the British medical activist) so they elevated her head in order to allow it to drain blood, as this injury was more serious than her spinal injury. They continued to talk to her in attempts to keep her conscience. The other bulldozer, which had been working about 30 meters to the west, abandoned work and withdrew to the boarder strip, and parked about 10 meters to the west of the murderous bulldozer. The tank came over to see what had happened, and I shouted that they had run over our friend, and that she may die. The soldiers in the tank never spoke to us, asked us any questions or offered us any help. They simply talked on their radio and then withdrew to
the border strip and parked between the two bulldozers.

Bunch of bloody murderers. The soldiers who did this never faced trial.link

[schmooky007]

Originally Posted by Sinner

Was this story false too????....I don't think so.....


Israeli bulldozer kills American protester

Israeli bulldozer runs over 23-year-old woman
Tuesday, March 25, 2003 Posted: 4:19 PM EST (2119 GMT)

RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

not fake but what's your point?

[schmooky007]

Originally Posted by miss_silver

Don't think it's a false story, even span sais once I should like her. Got a web site that depicts the whole thing

...

Bunch of bloody murderers. The soldiers who did this never faced trial.link

LOL great source!
and the soldier who ran her over shouldn't face any charges either. he didn't know she was there. and besides, nobody told her to get in front of the bulldozer. she proved nothing except that she's a terrorist sympatizer. a few days after she was killed pictures of her surfaced in a hamas rally burning american and israeli flags. the houses she tried to prevent the demolition of had a tunnel running underneath to smuggle weapons, weapons that are used to murder innocent israelis like tali hatuel and her four children who were shot to death in their car with rifles that probably made their way into gaza through such tunnels.

[Wenchie]

Originally Posted by schmooky007

LOL great source!
and the soldier who ran her over shouldn't face any charges either. he didn't know she was there.

I find that really hard to believe ..just look at the pics....blind freddy could have seen her

pictures of her surfaced in a hamas rally burning american and israeli flags.

Which is relevant how?
Is the punishment for displaying your opinion harmlessly 'death by dozer' ?

the houses she tried to prevent the demolition of had a tunnel running underneath to smuggle weapons,

Rachel was run over while attempting to save the house of a pharmacist, Dr. Samir Nasrallah of Rafah in the Gaza strip. Strangely, given the publicity that attended this tragedy, the Israeli Army has never shown any evidence of a tunnel in Dr. Nasrallah's house, or even in the surrounding area....the house has now been demolished.....I guess we will never know

weapons that are used to murder innocent israelis like tali hatuel and her four children who were shot to death in their car with rifles that probably made their way into gaza through such tunnels.

proof?

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by schmooky007

LOL great source!
and the soldier who ran her over shouldn't face any charges either. he didn't know she was there.

Yeah right, she was truly hard to miss wearing a fluo orange jacket and screeming through the top of her lungs on a loudspeaker

and besides, nobody told her to get in front of the bulldozer. she proved nothing except that she's a terrorist sympatizer.

You are right on this, nobody told her she had to do that but she did to try to protect innocent ppl and got killed for it. Palestinians are not terrorists, they are only humans being like you and me, trying to protect what land is left to them in anyway possible since they don't get 3 billions a year to protect themselves like those murderers do.

a few days after she was killed pictures of her surfaced in a hamas rally burning american and israeli flags. the houses she tried to prevent the demolition of had a tunnel running underneath to smuggle weapons, weapons that are used to murder innocent israelis like tali hatuel and her four children who were shot to death in their car with rifles that probably made their way into gaza through such tunnels.

Like Wenchie said, proofs are in order to back up your statement. Yeah, Nick Berg behedding was a shock to the world and it was considered a bloody murder... How come Rachel Corrie in your views, murder, is considered less?

Just to say that she prolly had more guts in her little finger than any of us ever will.

[Heathcliff]

Originally Posted by miss_silver

IMHO Sinner

This war will never stop until there's is no plaestinians or israelies left alive This was always a no win situation and israel will not stop until there is no palestinians left or until their US funds runs out. The palestinians will never give up until they are all dead or until the US funds runs out.

It truly is a no win situation

I disagree. This will end the day one (or both) of the following
two things occur:

1. The Israelis stop indoctrinating their youth with the idea the goi are all animals who have not even the right to life ect...

2. The Palestinians stop indoctrinating their youth that Israel has no right to exist as a state.

Also:

Both parties are being manipulated by outside forces against their own best interests. Nuff said there...

And:

It just goes to show you that "Religion" per se was the most wicked thing ever devised by anybody. All of them. Damn them all to Hell!

Makes me want to chuck it all for a fallout shelter in the Rockies.

I don't get you pisser, I think you need to do some real soul searching to find out why you have such a depraved disregard for others.