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Old 09-05-04, 07:28 AM   #1
theknife
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Default Cut and Run

i get up every morning and the news is all bad, day after day. Polling numbers now suggest the majority of Iraqis want us out and are willing to take their chances with whatever happens. Why not?

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BAGHDAD - Sadoun Dulame read the results of his latest poll again and again. He added up percentages, highlighted sections, and scribbled notes in the margins.

No matter how he crunched the numbers, however, he found himself in the uncomfortable position last week of having to tell occupation authorities that the report they commissioned paints the bleakest picture yet of the U.S.-led coalition's reputation in Iraq. For the first time, according to Dulame's poll, a majority of Iraqis said they would feel safer if the U.S. military withdrew immediately.

And that poll was conducted before the prison scandal erupted.
it truly seems that this we can do no right there....and that we are beyond redemption. the "liberator" fantasy is long dead and the notion that this is still part of the "war on terror" exists only in the administration's pr rhetoric.

Quote:
According to Dulame, director of the independent Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, prisoner abuse and other coalition missteps are fueling a dangerous blend of Islamism and tribalism.

For example, while U.S. officials insist that only fringe elements support radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, a majority of Iraqis crossed ethnic and sectarian lines to name him the second-most-respected man in Iraq, according to the coalition-funded poll.
so why not leave? aside from the administration insistence on continuing to get Americans killed to save political face, what's the point?

Quote:
Doubts about the Governing Council's competence and legitimacy resurfaced yesterday, when about 2,000 of Iraq's top scholars and activists gathered at the Babylon Hotel in Baghdad to form an anti-American political bloc.

A highly diverse crowd of Islamists, Christians, secular nationalists, Baathists and communists listened as speakers demanded an immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces and the dismantling of the Governing Council, whose members rode into Iraq "on American tanks." Even the prospect of civil war sounded better to them than a prolonged occupation.

"We'd like the Americans to go even if that means a sectarian war," Ahmed al-Baghdadi, a Shiite cleric, told the cheering crowd. "It would be a war among our boys, and old guys like us would be able to settle it quickly."
right-o, Ahmed - we'll pull out, you guys can sort it out, and call us for some aid when the shooting stops.

the notion that we can't leave coz it will hurt the US standing in future endeavors is laughable - it's hard to see how we could worsen America's standing in the world, at this point.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...8625055.htm?1c
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Old 09-05-04, 08:14 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cut and Run

Quote:
Originally posted by theknife

the notion that we can't leave coz it will hurt the US standing in future endeavors is laughable - it's hard to see how we could worsen America's standing in the world, at this point.

the aim of the game was to remove saddam and then install a democracy...
i guess that idea didnt take in to account all the spyware like crap that comes with that type of installation
those evil arabs must want something a little more open source thats not so user friendly
it maybe like trying to put windows in computer with a hammer..
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Old 09-05-04, 08:20 AM   #3
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Originally posted by multi
the aim of the game was to remove saddam and then install a democracy...
i guess that idea didnt take in to account all the spyware like crap that comes with that type of installation
those evil arabs must want something a little more open source thats not so user friendly
it maybe like trying to put windows in computer with a hammer..
great metaphor, multi
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Old 09-05-04, 09:53 AM   #4
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So we should just give up 'cause they think we're mean? Alright, I agree that we should leave as soon as possible, but I've heard better reasons than this. We can pull out and do so diplomatically. We're not going to make friends of the Iraqis by up and running when they say boo. There's still a good possibility that we can teach democracy to them, but if you think we should just run away then we might as well bring Saddam back and leave him in charge, we could do no worse if we gave up now.
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Old 09-05-04, 10:51 AM   #5
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its about now that they should mysteriously find some remnants of the iraqi royal family...and reinstall them as a kind of tempory operating system...



the guy in this photo looks to be related to that semi-evil rogue cleric/fighter..that is causing all the trouble down in the south of the iraqi map ..

if the troops pulled out..
what would happen?
would the whole country fall apart in a civil war type senario or would the knuckle down stop wrecking their own infrastructure and start rebuilding the place?

they probably will need a new beucratic
infrastructure after they finish deleting the ones that were installed while the troops where there..

i can see one big reason why there wont be any cutting and running though...the value for money factor..
what this is all costing and what the investors are hoping to gain from it all...

i tend to think this situation will remain in a state of flux until the elections are over this year..then depending on what happens there...we might then get a glimpse of what might pan out?
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Old 09-05-04, 12:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mazer
So we should just give up 'cause they think we're mean? Alright, I agree that we should leave as soon as possible, but I've heard better reasons than this. We can pull out and do so diplomatically. We're not going to make friends of the Iraqis by up and running when they say boo. There's still a good possibility that we can teach democracy to them, but if you think we should just run away then we might as well bring Saddam back and leave him in charge, we could do no worse if we gave up now.
nope, cut and run becomes a viable option when:

a)they don't want us there
b)they'd rather kill us than work with us
c)we can't win their hearts and minds
d)we're pouring billions of dollars and American lives down a black hole with no foreseeable end

...and as far as "teaching them democracy", that's a lesson they are not willing to sit and listen to. so, the question is the same as it has been throughout - how many American lives and how many billions of dollars is this worth?
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Old 09-05-04, 01:16 PM   #7
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the hawks were wrong (were they ever) and they lied to boot. the critics were right. let's move on before any more janes and johnnys come home in baskets, legless and blind, or not at all, while well meaning people wonder if maybe they were the ones who tortured and murdered iraqi civilians. comparing this to vietnam is rapidly becoming an insult to that 70's disaster.

- js.
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Old 09-05-04, 01:19 PM   #8
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People have been complaining about having no exit strategy.

Well there it is...tuck tail and shuffle shamefully away.

Bush and Rumsfeld should bear the shame as much as they can to sort of cleanse the U.S. when they're removed in the next election.

Not that they're going to volunteer.
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Old 09-05-04, 05:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by theknife
how many American lives and how many billions of dollars is this worth?
That is a loaded question, but I suppose that to you its answer is obvious.

They'll learn about democracy soon enough. They'll answer those polls asking whether they want us to stay, they'll tell us to get out, and if we do then they will have made their first and last democratic decision. They'll relish the moment that the voice of the majority defeated the USA, and look back on that day as the one and only time they were truely free. But after that they'll be oppressed and enslaved again because they chose to cast out the only other nation that actually listened to them and gave them a choice. Some lessons must be learned the hard way.
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Old 09-05-04, 06:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mazer
That is a loaded question, but I suppose that to you its answer is obvious.

They'll learn about democracy soon enough. They'll answer those polls asking whether they want us to stay, they'll tell us to get out, and if we do then they will have made their first and last democratic decision. They'll relish the moment that the voice of the majority defeated the USA, and look back on that day as the one and only time they were truely free. But after that they'll be oppressed and enslaved again because they chose to cast out the only other nation that actually listened to them and gave them a choice. Some lessons must be learned the hard way.
actually, it's a rhetorical question...


Quote:
originally posted by albed
People have been complaining about having no exit strategy.

Well there it is...tuck tail and shuffle shamefully away.

Bush and Rumsfeld should bear the shame as much as they can to sort of cleanse the U.S. when they're removed in the next election.

Not that they're going to volunteer.



why should a departure from Iraq now be shameful?

all along, it's been "we gotta get rid of Saddam, he's a threat, he's got wmd's yada yada yada", right? well, we went in there, we got Saddam, he's no longer a threat, there doesn't seem to be any wmd's - that mission's been accomplished. the only problem is now it seems the Iraqis don't wanna go to the next level. so be it. let them sort it out.

the troops, with exception of the few involved in the prisoner abuse cases, could certainly leave with their heads' held high - they did a hell of a job, they achieved their objective, and they really are heros. nothing shameful whatsoever about it.

so the "shame" of leaving Iraq really is only a political problem for a relatively small handful of people - Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle et al. as well it should be, no?

and since they are same people who so masterfully spun our way into this war, maybe they can spin our way out. particularly when there is a significant percentage of the US public that will still buy whatever they're selling
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Old 09-05-04, 06:55 PM   #11
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CUT OUR LOSSES~~GET THE FUCK OUT


U can call it running if u want.

& that's how i really feel (other than on the way out, extract the WMD from our "good friend" Israel).
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Old 10-05-04, 09:19 AM   #12
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Alright, so do we build an embassy or no? Leave a few marines there, with the threat of a siege looming over them? I mean, we've put in the time, we've paid for that land with blood, we should keep a couple of acres for our trouble. But we have to make it safe for our marines to stay there. You say it's alright to let Iraq dive into civil warfare after we take our leave of them. I say we can afford to allow a civil war less than we can can afford what we're doing now. If we march out waving our flag with our heads high and our backs to the Iraqis then Bagdhad will burn and that will be our legacy. The blood of those who will die in our absence will still be on our hands because we started this thing after all. But if we stand our ground and raise our flag in the middle of that city then at least we can show the world that we take responsibility for our actions, good and bad, and that we have made peace our business. Then it will be up to Iraqi officials and police forces to keep our embassy safe from mobs and militias, and when we can trust our former enemies to defend our soldiers and ambassadors then we will have accomplished something to be proud of.

Can any of you stand to watch your fellow man kill his own brother in a civil war? Would you watch the conflict on CNN and proudly say "We let it happen?" Would the world forgive us for causing it after we have already fought such a war on our own land? The UN may not have endorsed our invasion, but they expect us to finish the job. We are bound to Iraq's fate because we erased what little government they already had, and we destroyed their national defences. We are directly accountable for every wound that nation bears. Leaving now would only prove that we are the world's biggest bully, but I know better. America is the nation that makes allies out of enemies, and we repent for our sins. We even nuked an other country and they befriended us. Iraq is not so far gone that we can't protect it. So to allow them to perish in a childish power struggle when we have the means to save them would be our greatest sin. No more Saigons!
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Old 10-05-04, 09:41 AM   #13
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i think we've reached the point where those advocating a continued war should join a service and exchange thier inflexible philosophies for thier flexible bodies. the us needs less of the former and plenty more of the latter. besides if this forum is any example there are lots of gung-ho hawks around with time on thier unamputed hands. if for some inexplicaple reason however the pentagon doesn't get enough commited tank bacon so be it - and out we come.

hey, here's an idea: do everything you can to avoid war but if, unlike this one, it's absolutely necessary, fight it only with those who advocate it. start with the politicians and the gasbag idiots of the right wing talk show circuit. not enough armchair hawks to pull it off? then think of a peaceful solution.

- js.
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Old 10-05-04, 11:34 AM   #14
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Amen Jack.

It's interesting to me that your portrait of Iraqis treats them as retarded children Mazer. With this attitude that we are their only hope for enlightenment, that only we are equipped to tell them how to live their lives, that we are the only ones who can "listen' to them, diagnose them and prescribe remedies to them, it's really small wonder that they want us the hell out.

It always amazes me on this issue that people seem to be so unable to imagine the shoe being on the other foot--most, I assume, find the scenario ridiculous because they believe our form of government is the ultimate panacea for all the human race's ills, so the idea of an invading force imposing an alternate system on us is just unthinkable. But even if this invading force did have a "better idea" for us, I submit it would be very hard for us to collectively swallow at the barrel of a gun. It would wound our pride, threaten our identity and in general just really piss a whole lot of people off. If Americans got word that some of these supposedly superior people were treating "American detainees" like filthy animals, I think most Americans would vow to fight to the death rather than allow these people to succeed in telling us how to restructure our society.

Yet, instead of granting the Iraqis enough sense to have these kinds of basic human reactions, I guess it's easier to paint them as helpless, clueless little children who just don't know what's good for them. It's illogical in the face of having claimed so vehemently on their behalf that they hated life under Hussein's oppressive regime--apparently they were smart enough to realize that sucked, but when they claim they don't want to be oppressed and controlled by a new, invading, foriegn force, we suddenly have no more empathy for them and figure that we need to just keep killing them until they get it that we are the good guys.

"We've paid for that land with blood"? Sounds like the same logic we used to "pay" for our present country, though I doubt if the dead Native Americans we left in our wake felt they got a deal.
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Old 10-05-04, 08:06 PM   #15
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You've read my mind, Ramona, though I don't think they're retarded. I fear that as long as they continue to act like children then we have few options. I know that Iraqis are fairly well educated, perhaps even well read on the subjects of self government and republic, and yet they threaten to revert to tribalism. It defys reason. You're right, I would probably be offended if some foreign power decided to dissolve my government, but I know that our nation has the ability to defend itself from such a threat. That power and might is derived from the Consititution and the rights it provides me and every American. It simply works, and if it didn't then the USA would have never lasted this long. The fact that the government and military of Iraq fell in only four months shows that it was meant to be destroyed, if not by us than by Iran or some other country with wild ambitions, though not as quickly. Iraq simply did not have the benevolent government and diciplined military it deserved.

I do hope we hurt their national pride, I hope it stirs them into a resurgence of patiotism, I hope they have the will to rebuild their nation as one nation, because I know that's what we would do if the shoe were on the other foot. We would take whatever government they left us and Americanize it, innovate and refine it into something uniquely our own; we've done it twice before. I admit I don't know what makes Iraq different from other Islamic nations, but I think they can figure it out, and we are listening to them. Here I don't mean the US government listens to them, I mean the free press does.

CNN, the BBC, Sky News, Al Jazeera, they all have different takes on what's really happening in Iraq, but they have unprecedented access to the people now. Journalists are interviewing regular everyday Iraqis for the first time in decades, and cameras are everywhere broadcasting the state of Iraq over the air and online. Polls are being conducted, and they've proven to be accurate. Yes, for the first time someone is asking Iraq what it really wants, and because of that we are here on this board discussing their dissension when before we could only guess what they wanted. Those of them that can read english are probably reading this board, and at some point they may be moved to participate in our debates. A dialogue is begining, and for once they're speaking out against their oppressors without fear of being silenced, put down, jailed, and murdered. They may hate us, but we'll let them because we know they'll grow up someday.

Ignorance is forgivable as long as it is temporary. Childish behavior is to be expected, but it can't be tolerated forever. Our forces are going to leave Iraq, that's a certainty. I still think it's our responsibility to leave Iraq better than we found it. They don't have to Americanize themselves for us, they just have to mature to our level. Iraq as it appears on the world map is still a young country, younger even than the USA, budding with lots of potential. The right thing to do at this point is to impart some wisdom and point them in the right direction. Whether they choose to follow our lead is up to them, but we can't abandom them on the basis that they might not follow us. We don't know what's best for Iraq, but at this point they don't really know either. One thing's for sure, the UN sanctions agains them should be lifted permanently, but they have to earn it. Before we can sign a peace treaty with them they need to have a their soverignty and a government to represent them. Those are worthy goals, I think they should persue them, and from there they can do what they want.
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Old 12-05-04, 08:02 PM   #16
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Quotes from RAS.
" though I doubt if the dead Native Americans we left in our wake felt they got a deal."

But I bettca the live ones do...

I don't understand why they can run casinos and I can't.

Just 'cause they got fucked over way back then is no reason to let them screw over everyone now. At least Nevada gets a nice income out of gambling. The Indians (or the ones that "claim" to be) contribute squat to the public in CA.
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