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Old 17-02-04, 02:41 AM   #61
tambourine-man
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sinner
Kerry marched in demonstrations where there was a clear presence and "abundance of Vietcong flags, clenched fists raised in the air, and placards plainly bearing legends in support of China, Cuba, the USSR, North Korea and the Hanoi government."
Kerry was a vocal supporter of the "People's Peace Treaty," a supposed "people's" declaration to end the war, reportedly drawn up in communist East Germany. It included nine points, all of which were taken from Viet Cong (Vietnamese Communist) peace proposals at the Paris Peace Talks as conditions for a United States retreat from the Vietnam War.
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Originally posted by Scooob
bush never marched against america under the communist flag
Heh heh... when was the last time you guys went on a protest march? It's time to break out the 'secret knowledge' that I don't often hand out... but for you guys - I'll make an exception.

The trouble with all these posts your slapping around, is that they're all essentially secondary sources (and since the accusation of not 'study[ing] history' has surfaced), I'm sure we're all well aware that secondary sources make really shitty arguments within historical science (both for and against). The reason for this is simple: they'll be written with a particular bias, memory or perspective - some will be obvious, like Limbaugh, others will be not so obvious.

Couple of things really, if you'd been on a march at some point in your life, you'd realise that the appearance of solidarity or singular ideal is transient, it's imaginary. Protest marches come and go, and serve the purpose of providing a focused outlet for mass anger, mass frustration and mass desire to see change. However, there's very rarely a single reason why people are on the streets - sure, there may be a common, underlying desire to "stop bombing (insert minute country) now", but the people who congregate within marches generally have radically different perspectives. For example, I've frequently marched against the Iraq War and been joined by people who's motivation comes from nuclear disarmourment, others who desire stricter environmental laws, others who demand action for Palestinians, some who wish to see Cuba brought out of the 1930's and... shock, horror.... even some who are socialist and... I'm not sure how to tell you this.... but there's a small percentage of people who are even strongly Communist!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The point being: that individuality and distinction don't stop at mass gatherings. Despite what might be easy to conclude (that all people who gather there can have the 'Commie label' slapped on them), you're incorrect to find 'guilty by association'. Simply flinging a couple of pictures (one of them fake - the other that looks like a picture of Fonda with Herman Munster in the background) and a few heavily-biased articles does not constitute an argument... and certainly not one that can pass the guilty verdict on something (as apparently important) as whether someone is 'a Commie'. No doubt you'll argue: "I never said he was a Commie", but frankly, the insinuation comes through loud and clear.

If there is a connection between Fonda and Kerry, then the only one I've seen is the aforementioned picture and a couple of right-wing articles that accuse them of sharing a pick-up truck. I'll also give you some more 'insider info' on protestors - they'll quite happily share resources (even a stage) with one another to achieve the common underlying desire, despite the fact that their politics and morals are antithetical - such are the tight finances of genuinely people-powered movements.

You might also wonder why I'm apparently arguing for Kerry - well... I'm not. Kerry will have as many skeletons in his closet as any other politician, (though how he could be any worse than the present, double-dealing masquerader is hard to imagine). What I'm arguing against is the usual dog-turd, Government inspired drivel about how activists and protestors are somehow a bunch of Anarchists, or Commies or Terrorist-sympathisers, or enemy-lovers. It's crap. Absolute crap. As is the rhetoric that gets churned out at times like this, about how protesting against your country is somehow wrong, unpatriotic or traitorous. Protesting and playing an active part in what is allegedly 'your Democracy' is one of the most patriotic things you can do. Standing on an aircraft carrier, pretending to shoot down planes is not.

If Kerry's guilty of anything, it'll be a quivering ideological stance and an inconsistant, mixed-message voting record. As for being a Commie/USA-hater/enemy-lover - you've got a better chance of pinning that label on me!
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Old 17-02-04, 03:30 AM   #62
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"I did not authorise the leaking of the name of David Kelly. Nobody was authorised to name David Kelly. I believe we have acted properly throughout" Tony Blair - July 22, 2003
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Old 17-02-04, 05:58 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by tambourine-man
and... shock, horror.... even some who are socialist and... I'm not sure how to tell you this.... but there's a small percentage of people who are even strongly Communist!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To help the Free World, some Western patriots are even ready to have sex with the commies!

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Old 17-02-04, 08:37 AM   #64
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nice post tm but i'm afraid it'll fall on deaf ears, complex thoughts greatly confuse these ah, patriots. scoob's a girl on a singular miss-ion! and btw, all this time i thought commies were desicated wallflowers. had i known they looked like that tg i'da joined in hi skewl. oh yeah, that girl the fascists tried connecting to kerry? she denies anything ever took place. happy valentines!

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Old 17-02-04, 08:48 AM   #65
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oh yeah, that girl the fascists tried connecting to kerry?
lol do you even know what fascist means? or is it something you picked up at the dailykos.com?
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Old 17-02-04, 09:19 AM   #66
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got a pretty good idea spanny. not sure you do tho. so as public service, here's the word from wiki -

''The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that exalts nation and often race above the individual, and uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).''

sounds a lot like your pals.

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Old 17-02-04, 09:21 AM   #67
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Originally posted by JackSpratts
cartoons sinner? wow, you're off the deep end now.

- js.

What you don't like cartoons? Makes it easy to understand don't it?


The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory.


In his 1985 memoir about the war, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S. - according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.
That's why, he predicted on Tuesday, the Vietnam War issue "is going to blow up in Kerry's face."


"People are going to remember Gen. Giap saying if it weren't for these guys [Kerry's group], we would have lost," North told radio host Sean Hannity.


"The Vietnam Veterans Against the War encouraged people to desert, encouraged people to mutiny - some used what they wrote to justify fragging officers," noted the former Marine lieutenant colonel, who earned two purple hearts in Vietnam.


"John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands," North said.
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Old 17-02-04, 09:24 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by JackSpratts
got a pretty good idea spanny. not sure you do tho. so as public service, here's the word from wiki -

''The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that exalts nation and often race above the individual, and uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).''

sounds a lot like your pals.

- js.
it may sound like it to you since you despise America but to anyone with an IQ over the 3rd grade level all it does is diminish the real fascists that killed millions 60 years ago.

congrats on making light of the Holocaust, the jews will love you now.

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Old 17-02-04, 09:32 AM   #69
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"My inclination was to support the government and the war until proven wrong, and that only came later, as I realized we could not explain the mission, had no exit strategy, and did not seem to be fighting to win." - George W. Bush
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Old 17-02-04, 09:38 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by span
it may sound like it to you since you despise America but to anyone with an IQ over the 3rd grade level all it does is diminish the real fascists that killed millions 60 years ago.

congrats on making light of the Holocaust, the jews will love you now.

your sanctimoniousness knows no depths. see, this is what you fascists fail to grasp: you can be critical of america and still love her. well, you can't obviously. but i can, and do.

you're jewish? then let's let them make up their own minds shall we? i think they've a bit more brains and depth than you give them credit for.

- js.
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Old 17-02-04, 09:48 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by JackSpratts


you're jewish? then let's let them make up their own minds shall we? i think they've a bit more brains and depth than you give them credit for.

- js.
well when the radical left wing site Moveon hosted the Bush=Hitler video both the ADL and the Simon Weisenthal Center(they prosecute nazi war criminals) condemned it so it's would be safe to say they have "made up their own minds" about your asinine analogy.
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Old 17-02-04, 10:40 AM   #72
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Originally posted by tambourine-man
Heh heh... when was the last time you guys went on a protest march? It's time to break out the 'secret knowledge' that I don't often hand out... but for you guys - I'll make an exception.



Never, I have a job. Don't have time to go block traffic, smash windows and throw things at cops. But, I would attend this one if I had the time....


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Old 17-02-04, 11:00 AM   #73
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Never, I have a job. Don't have time to go block traffic, smash windows and throw things at cops. But, I would attend this one if I had the time....
"How come," I asked Andy, "whenever something upsets the Left, you see immediate marches and parades and rallies with signs already printed and rhyming slogans already composed, whereas whenever something upsets the Right, you see two members of the Young Americans for Freedom waving a six-inch American flag?"
"We have jobs," said Andy.

- Parliament of Whores (1991)
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Old 17-02-04, 01:42 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by span
well when the radical left wing site Moveon hosted the Bush=Hitler video both the ADL and the Simon Weisenthal Center(they prosecute nazi war criminals) condemned it so it's would be safe to say they have "made up their own minds" about your asinine analogy.
there you span, assuming again and talking about things you know little about. this time you’re assuming the jewish community is somehow different from the rest of the planet - that they're monolithic. i can assure you they most definitely are not.

new york senator charles schumer made the hitler connection as recently as thursday.

it's safe to say he's made up his own mind and finds "my analogy" apt.

- js.
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Old 17-02-04, 01:44 PM   #75
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Originally posted by JackSpratts
oh yeah, that girl the fascists tried connecting to kerry? she denies anything ever took place. happy valentines!
js, have you even noticed that not one conservative has ever brought up kerry’s alleged affair in this thread? and, again, if you will read up, you’ll see that the rumor was started by wesley clark. do you consider him to be a “fascist” as well?

now, since you have labeled conservatives “fascists”…


“The methods deployed by the liberals today can be described by one word, fascist. Don't believe me? Lets take a look at their methods of operation..”

Suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship -

They act as if their views are superior to any other and try to silence those who don't agree. If you don't believe this just search for any news story on a conservative speaker being drowned out by a small group of protesters (Charlton Heston comes to mind). Censorship is one of the most powerful tools used by the fascist. If no one can hear opposing views then the fascist gets to determine what is heard.

Fascism can take on many looks. It doesn't always have a swastika branded on its sleeve. Remember the Democrats accusing the Republicans of wanting to kill children and elderly people? Did that have anything to do with the truth? Through the media, which acted like an accessory, they were able to push this lie. This is the same type of demonization that the Nazi's used to turn the German people against the Jews. What is the next step the liberals will take?

Their tactics don't stop there. If the Boy Scouts of America won't accept homosexual scout leaders, then they must be banished from society. Never mind the fact that the Boy Scouts are a private religious based organization. Why don't those who feel the Scouts are wrong start their own organization of camping? Because it is not about equal access, it is about conformity.

Abortion shouldn't have to be mentioned. Anyone who has the slightest pro-life tendency is portrayed as a rightwing extremist. Even late term abortion shouldn't be touched. Who are the real extremists?

Stringent socioeconomic controls -

The environmentalist want government to take active role in regulating U.S. companies and citizens to make sure that they are abiding by the latest environmental protection laws. We can't drill for our own oil because that would pollute the environment.
That isn't the only type of regulation that is used. See what happens if you have a religious theme in cubicle at work or try praying in public. Say something similar to "homosexuals shouldn't be treated like a special interest group." You are not allowed to verbally soil any of the "protected" groups, but if you aren't a member be prepared to have every thing you believe assaulted with voracious tenacity.

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator -

We narrowly avoided this with the last president. Clinton tried to redefine federalism by making Washington D.C. responsible for things the states currently handle. It would've changed the structure of this country. Luckily, an overwhelming number of governors (both Democrat and Republican) fought Clinton on this. We were close.

The liberals have even co-opted some of the same beliefs as the Nazi's. No smoking in government building was not an American idea, it was first practiced by the government officials of Germany in the early 1930's. Here's another chilling item. Who said this: "This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead into the future!" It was not Diane Feinstein or Barbara Streissand, it was none other than Adolph Hitler.

As we look at the tactics being used by the left, one can only come to the intelligent conclusion that they trying to employ the same tactics that were used by the last group of fascists who successfully gained control. I don't believe that the left will follow in the footsteps of the Nazi's, but I don't want find out too late that I was wrong.

http://www.geocities.com/craig_walte...t/fascist.html
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Old 17-02-04, 01:49 PM   #76
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"My inclination was to support the government and the war until proven wrong, and that only came later, as I realized we could not explain the mission, had no exit strategy, and did not seem to be fighting to win." - George W. Bush
if you’re going to quote george bush on what he felt when he was 20 yrs. old..quote the entire statement.

Candidates: "Who were you when you were 20 years old?"

GEORGE W. BUSH

"We were young men trying to enjoy what should have been the last carefree days of youth. But we could no longer be the same cavalier college students. We all knew that something was fundamentally, frighteningly wrong ... We discussed Vietnam, but we were more concerned with the decision each of us had to make: military service or not. I knew I would serve.

Leaving the country to avoid the draft was not an option for me; I was too conservative and too traditional. My inclination was to support the government and the war until proven wrong, and that only came later, as I realized we could not explain the mission, had no exit strategy and did not seem to be fighting to win."
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Old 17-02-04, 01:52 PM   #77
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it must an illness of tunnell vision...

scoob the alleged affair was brought up in this thread. what are you on?

- js.
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Old 17-02-04, 02:00 PM   #78
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if you’re going to quote george bush on what he felt when he was 20 yrs. old..quote the entire statement.
the entire statement? you post his entire statement lol. it's his book for christ's sake, published when he was in his 40's.

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Old 17-02-04, 02:15 PM   #79
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it must an illness of tunnell vision...
scoob the alleged affair was brought up in this thread. what are you on?
i said not one conservative brought up his alleged affair in this thread. it was not brought up at all.. until you brought it up.
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Old 17-02-04, 02:46 PM   #80
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the entire statement? you post his entire statement lol. it's his book for christ's sake, published when he was in his 40's.
nice tap dance js, but yes..the entire statement. you only posted half of the quote, which was bush's answer to the question "who were you when you were 20 yrs. old?." the question was asked of all the candidates at the "rock the vote" debate in boston.

http://www.jsonline.com/lifestyle/pe...n04/202271.asp

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