WASTE 1.6 "Special Edition"

[AngryGnome]

I've been using Waste for about a month or so now and have really been enjoying it. One thing I was curious about though is how many of you have tried the v1.6 "special edition?" When I first looked at Waste for possible use I went to their main website where the most current version is listed as 1.5 beta3. However, I also looked on wikipedia and found this:

"A "non-official" 1.6 Windows edition addresses some UI and privacy concerns."

Well... I was curious about what this v1.6 might have to offer and so I went searching for it. I found it here. So I personally use v1.6 and have never used any other version. I was just wondering how many of you use it also.

Also, the forum where v1.6 is posted has many interesting things related to Waste (including projects based on Waste). You can find it here.

Hope this is of interest to some of you.

-AngryGnome

[JackSpratts]

ok, just to be clear, the only "official" waste client is that of the developer justin frankel. released three and a half years ago it works surprisingly well for an application that hasn’t been publicly updated since, but it got the ball rolling as it were and hence the interest and the sourceforge project. while these have been called "official" releases they are really an offshoot of frankel's original client, modified by well meaning coders yes, but no more official than a mod you yourself might choose to develop - and since even these new updates have been dwindling of late it may just be a matter of time before other users take up the call and jump in with refined mods like crypton did last summer - or move along to something else, like a new system entirely.

it's fair to say then that all present modifications of legacy v.1 are ultimately "non-official." this distinction is actually an important one. it goes to the heart of something waste users hold very dear, and that is their own security. it's one thing to trust your fortune to frankel, it's quite another to put it in the hands of anyone who comes along claiming to offer "improvements." this is not to say sourceforge is somehow lacking in some respect. indeed, if any group should take on the project they are perhaps the most transparent. the issue instead is balance. that is to say how much are updates worth compared to the cost of possible vulnerabilities? that answer is highly personal, but suffice to say there are those whose needs lean more to sanctuary than expediency. this is not surprising. with so many regularly updated file-trading clients out there like utorrent and soulseek, there are plenty of choices for ease of use and speed, but if security is paramount the list dwindles quickly.

there are for-instance long-term meshes still using the original client, operating in complete anonymity and rigorously so, even after all this time. it's not particularly surprising; frankel's creation was a brilliant piece of work in 2003. in 2007 so it remains.

i haven't used crypton's modified sourceforge release and i probably won't, since i'm one of those users happy with the original official client, but if you and others get it going in a larger mesh angrygnome let us know how you fare.

- js.

[AngryGnome]

I have never used the original Waste client. Perhaps I will try it out. One thing I do like about v1.6 (this may also be true for other versions but I know it is not the case with the original) is that it acts as a standalone exe. You can run it without having to install. This is a big plus in my book.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I'll check out the original version sometime soon.

-AngryGnome

[Mazer]

Hell, Jack, you make it sound like there's no room for improvement.

So, most of the WASTE updates up 'till now have been cosmetic. Big deal. Official is a useless term in the open source world to begin with. Which one is the 'official' GNU/Linux distribution? There is no such thing. Is Cohen's mainline BitTorrent client the 'official' client, or just the one that came first? Bittorrent purists are actually shying away from the mainline client because it's designed to participate in BitTorrent's nascent commercial distribution network. Being the only client that is actively developed by the original Bittorrent creator doesn't make it the only useful one.

Frankel has disowned his own creations. He quit Nullsoft because he no longer had control over Winamp's development. He didn't participate in Gnutella's development after he leaked the source code almost seven years ago, and it still became ubiquitous without his help. Now WASTE is languishing in relative obscurity and has not attracted any new developers in more than a year. Useful as it is, it's becoming more dinosauric as time goes by while Frankel has moved on to bigger and better projects.

WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Hell,
WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

What would you suggest these days, Mazer? I know you still use Waste. Is there a better option? Just wondering, not looking for debate.

[JackSpratts]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Hell, Jack, you make it sound like there's no room for improvement.

not at all - as long as the focus is security. why else use waste?

Originally Posted by Mazer

Official is a useless term in the open source world to begin with.

you’ve paraphrased my main point (and with less diplomacy) but agreed mazer.

Originally Posted by Mazer

Frankel has disowned his own creations.

disown is a strong word. it denotes action frankel hasn’t to my knowledge taken (for all i know he’s working privately). he’s appears to have lost interest in public collaborations certainly.

Originally Posted by Mazer

WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

that may be (although i find important uses for it hourly), if the history of p2p can be our guide we all know that something will come along to replace it, but in the meantime there are those who need objective information about this system now.

- js.

[multi]

Originally Posted by AngryGnome

I have never used the original Waste client. Perhaps I will try it out. One thing I do like about v1.6 (this may also be true for other versions but I know it is not the case with the original) is that it acts as a standalone exe. You can run it without having to install. This is a big plus in my book.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I'll check out the original version sometime soon.

-AngryGnome

you can run the .exe without having to install with the first version of waste but the network protocol is not compatible with clients after 1.4 alpha3

now if this new version had some sort of switch you could add to the shortcut where it could run with either the early or later client might be bonus

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by JackSpratts

in the meantime there are those who need objective information about this system now.

It's all there in the source code. Any and all security holes are visible, naked to the world. If the newer versions of WASTE were not as secure then either they would be fixed or nobody would use them. My advice to AngryGnome, use caution with any new software you try, but don't be afraid just because the original author had no part in this particular code branch. I'll bet there are coders out there who are just as talented as Justin Frankel, and I'd be willing to believe some of them had a hand in WASTE 1.6.

By the way, if I sound argumentative I apologize. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Political Asylum.

Originally Posted by vernarial

What would you suggest these days, Mazer? I know you still use Waste. Is there a better option? Just wondering, not looking for debate.

Personally I don't have an other preference. WASTE appeals to my inner geek (not to mention my curiosity about human nature), but WASTE scares a lot of people away because they don't have an inner geek. I'd suggest any program that encrypts all communications, and while public key encryption sounds great in theory, WASTE's implementation is too complex. Programs that use web standard Transport Layer Security also use public key encryption, but they handle the key exchange transparently making them much more accessible to non-technical users, and when you take away the guesswork then network security inherently improves.

AllPeers looks like a good alternative, though it does lack a group chat feature. It doesn't organize users into meshes like WASTE does; all connections are one to one so you can add someone to your personal buddy list without exposing the identities or files that others in your buddy list are sharing with you. No permission is required which means you have total control over your connection to your peers.

WASTE by contrast builds webs of trust and forces individuals to consider other people because the actions of one individual can affect the whole group. This is not always a good thing, given the low level of rationality and maturity that many internet users demonstrate. I've seen groupthink split meshes apart and drive members away. WASTE just isn't for everybody, in fact it's not for most people.

I've learned a lot about prejudice and fear from my experiences with WASTE. The software is more like a mad scientist's social experiment than a serious file sharing tool, but it does the job as advertised. In the future I'd prefer to use an encrypted file sharing tool that does not raise animosity and make people afraid of the outside world, and my search for a program with those features continues.

[Malk-a-mite]

Originally Posted by Mazer

It's all there in the source code. Any and all security holes are visible, naked to the world.

Quick point, most of the world doesn't care to look at the code, and of those that do not all of them are qualified to tell what is a security hole and what isn't.

Just something to keep in mind.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

WASTE by contrast builds webs of trust and forces individuals to consider other people because the actions of one individual can affect the whole group. This is not always a good thing, given the low level of rationality and maturity that many internet users demonstrate. I've seen groupthink split meshes apart and drive members away. WASTE just isn't for everybody, in fact it's not for most people.

I've learned a lot about prejudice and fear from my experiences with WASTE. The software is more like a mad scientist's social experiment than a serious file sharing tool, but it does the job as advertised. In the future I'd prefer to use an encrypted file sharing tool that does not raise animosity and make people afraid of the outside world, and my search for a program with those features continues.

it is a particular political and legal climate that makes a program like Waste necessary in the first place...and it is this climate that breeds the fear and prejudice that Waste users may experience. the software only creates a group dynamic for a valid paranoia, because there really are powerful forces at work against people who would use a program like Waste.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by Malk-a-mite

Quick point, most of the world doesn't care to look at the code, and of those that do not all of them are qualified to tell what is a security hole and what isn't.

I count myself among that first group. I've never bothered to look at the source code. I put my trust in the competitive self interest and paranoia of the programmers and hackers who use their own software. If it's good enough for those people who actually know how to find security holes then it's good enough for me. Of course I leave this decision to each of us individually. If someone decides that they only trust the original programmer and none of the ones that came after him, fine.

Originally Posted by theknife

it is a particular political and legal climate that makes a program like Waste necessary in the first place...and it is this climate that breeds the fear and prejudice that Waste users may experience. the software only creates a group dynamic for a valid paranoia, because there really are powerful forces at work against people who would use a program like Waste.

People still find ways to feel unsafe within the strictures of WASTE's peculiar group dynamic. The legal climate makes the encryption necessary, but it doesn't make the infighting and the ostracizing and the turning of friends against each other necessary. As much as possible the software should shelter its users from the climate of fear and prejudice outside, but it often does not. Once you've exiled all the people in your mesh who make you feel unsafe (something you can only do by making them want to leave on their own), WASTE works perfectly.

[JackSpratts]

Originally Posted by Mazer

By the way, if I sound argumentative I apologize. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Political Asylum.

well ok, but calling waste the 8-track of secure file-sharing was a bit extreme.

if only it were true!

imagine hopping into a multi-colored van and being greeted with "Dude! You gotta check out this new MESH!"

Originally Posted by Mazer

Once you've exiled all the people in your mesh who make you feel unsafe (something you can only do by making them want to leave on their own), WASTE works perfectly.

you've just described every private tracker i've ever visited lol. ditto btw soulseek and its own brand of ban-mad power-sharers.

in the p2p community waste has no monopoly on social tension and uber-cliques, peculiar or otherwise. one need only gaze back at the turbulent genesis of this very forum to see that. but yes, as long as apathy, member differences or a determined troll can disrupt a community then waste groups, like any social organization will be vulnerable. on the other hand since no one can be forced to leave under any circumstances i’m always happily surprised to see meshes lasting as long as they do.

- js.

[Mazer]

Well there's always that I guess. My own Wasted experiences have never turned me against anyone, I've only ever watch it happen to other people. Once a mesh does manage to settle into a groove it's a beautiful thing. Building a successful mesh is a growing experience for all those involved, and the reward is longevity. But is filesharing really supposed to be a test of character?

The answer is probably blowin' in the wind or something.

I think the security WASTE provides is sufficient, but there's room for improvement in its social features. Does the way WASTE brings out the paranoia in people enhance its security in any way? I don't think it does and if that effect could be eliminated then it would be for the better. That's why I'm not a WASTE purist.

[TankGirl]

The only noteworthy difference between version 1.6 and SourceForge version 1.5 beta 3 seems to be the end-to-end encrypted PM feature of 1.6. I can imagine situations where some special small group members might wish for another layer of trust like that but for normal filesharers the feature seems quite useless. The basic need for a filesharing group is to protect the network from hostile outsiders; version 1.6 protects private communications of group members A and B from a curious group member C that would have to use a modified client to spy PMs of A and B that happen to be routed through C - a rather hypothetical threat, especially as no developer has made such modified clients available so far.

As for the differences between Justin Frankel's original version and SourceForge 1.5b3 version, I think there are a couple of practically meaningful new features on 1.5b3 that make me recommend it to new groups instead of the original version. First: the new stealth mode, which encrypts the initial handshaking routines of WASTE clients when they connect to each other. This makes it harder for hostile third parties to detect that you are using WASTE in the first place - which might help you to avoid e.g. p2p traffic shaping at your ISP. Second: longer chat messages. This may sound like a small thing but anybody who has used the original client any longer knows how annoying it can be when your chat message is cropped but you are not aware of it. I think the original client allowed some 256 characters in a chat line, the 1.5+ versions allow 1024. 1.5b3 also has a nice broadcast feature that allows you to send a message to all group members (just open a chat channel named $$broadcast and send messages there).

[multi]

(just open a chat channel named $$broadcast and send messages there).

been using this version for 6 months or more
and never realized that was there

Thanks TG!