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Old 18-01-07, 05:59 AM   #61
theknife
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You can call it stupid, but for them carrying out God's will is not an intellectual choice.
tell me about it.
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President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml
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Old 18-01-07, 08:44 AM   #62
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Consider this statement from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert: "The time is approaching when Israel and the world community will have to decide whether to take military action against Iran." Or Israeli Brigadier General Oded Tira who said that because "President Bush lacks the political power to attack Iran," Israel and its supporters "must lobby the Democratic Party and U.S. newspaper editors" to demand such an attack. If the Americans do not take military action against Iran, General Tira promised, "we'll do it ourselves."

Now ask yourself this question: Are your views on Iran influenced by all this "lobbying"?
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Old 18-01-07, 10:20 AM   #63
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it's more plausible that Iran's leaders are not as stupid as our leaders and are not going to start a war they cannot possibly win. why would they?

Iran’s leaders are not stupid at all, they are very smart. They know what they are doing, they know how to use the media to their advantage. They know Americans are peaceful people and as shown in this thread do not want to be brought into a war with Iran. Now if Iran attacked Americans on American soil it would be over for them but it seems Americans are not to worried about the fact they are directly involved in the killing of American soldiers in Iraq. Some would rather blame their own leaders. A good part of the country would rather ignore what goes on over seas, again this is what America did before Pearl Harbor and what America did with bin Laden and the Taliban before 9/11. To an Extremist like President Tom when you come to the table to talk, it is a sign of weakness, oh they will listen to you, shake your hand and agree with erery thing you are saying. Once you leave they are making plans to kill you.

No one wants a War with Iran, and the situation is very volatile. What can or should be done? If Israel or the USA or both attack Iran it may set off a firestorm, not just in the Middle East, remember the riots in Paris and the UK? Times that by ten. Hopefully cooler heads prevail, like the Cuban missile crisis did. America can not Cut & Run from Iraq, that is the key, if America does you can move that doomsday clock to 30 seconds to midnight.
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Old 18-01-07, 11:57 AM   #64
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it seems Americans are not to worried about the fact they are directly involved in the killing of American soldiers in Iraq
Threre is no evidence to support that claim other than Bush, Cheney, Condi, et el. saying it is so, and we all know how honest that group is.[/sarchasm]

Maybe you call it a "fact" due to those wily Iranians' clever use of the western media to their advantage propagandawise?

Of course the Iranian diplomats who were illegally arrested in Iraq are most likey right now being tortured into "confessing" to whatever the hell their witch hunters want them to.

It is the exact same game plan they used in the run up to the Iraq disaster except this time they think they can pull off another Gulf of Tonkin event and ramrod Congress into voting for war with Iran.

And by they I mean Israel.

Like I said, Iran has a problem with Israel and Israel has a problem with Iran and as far as I can tell, there is nothing between them but air and opportunity.
And again, not my or my country's problem.

I wonder how most americans would feel if Iran had a well financed lobbying group constantly pestering our elected politicians in DC to attack Israel and saturating the media with evil Israel stories?
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Old 18-01-07, 03:37 PM   #65
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And again, not my or my country's problem.
You must live in a very isolated country then. Where at, Antartica? The moon?

Do you really think a nuclear war that will spread to involve eastern Europe, southern Asia, northern Africa, and half of the world's population will not have any effect on the United States? When Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, and Israel decide to glass the entire middle east and send a billion souls to the afterlife, you're just going to sit in your living room and watch it on TV with a bowl of popcorn? Wow. I never knew such apathy could exist.
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Old 18-01-07, 04:13 PM   #66
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You must live in a very isolated country then. Where at, Antartica? The moon?

Do you really think a nuclear war that will spread to involve eastern Europe, southern Asia, northern Africa, and half of the world's population will not have any effect on the United States? When Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, and Israel decide to glass the entire middle east and send a billion souls to the afterlife, you're just going to sit in your living room and watch it on TV with a bowl of popcorn? Wow. I never knew such apathy could exist.
Nope.
I'll be sitting on the beach knocking back shooters of Maker's Mark.

By the way the fear isn't working any more.

The world is NOT going to end if we DON'T attack Iran.

Just like America was not going to be sprouting mushroom clouds if we did not invade Iraq.

Same bold faced lies; different country.

War with Iran?
No thanks.
One clusterfuck was enough.

If you and the neocons want war with Iran so badly; move to Israel.
I hear that they will be starting one with them very soon and seeing as how they have a population of less than 7 million people, I'm quite certain they would welcome you with open "arms".
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Old 18-01-07, 05:50 PM   #67
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Nope.
I'll be sitting on the beach knocking back shooters of Maker's Mark.

By the way the fear isn't working any more.

The world is NOT going to end if we DON'T attack Iran.

Just like America was not going to be sprouting mushroom clouds if we did not invade Iraq.

Same bold faced lies; different country.

War with Iran?
No thanks.
One clusterfuck was enough.

If you and the neocons want war with Iran so badly; move to Israel.
I hear that they will be starting one with them very soon and seeing as how they have a population of less than 7 million people, I'm quite certain they would welcome you with open "arms".
what beach? save me a shot

totally agree with all of this and am puzzled by one thing: why would anyone believe anything they are being told by the Bush administration? even being charitable and not calling them outright liars, the administration neocons and the hawks have been wrong about absolutely everything.

this administration has only fear to sell - it amazes me how many suckers are buying.
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Old 18-01-07, 07:35 PM   #68
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what beach? save me a shot

totally agree with all of this and am puzzled by one thing: why would anyone believe anything they are being told by the Bush administration? even being charitable and not calling them outright liars, the administration neocons and the hawks have been wrong about absolutely everything.

this administration has only fear to sell - it amazes me how many suckers are buying.
It's not really a beach in the sense that you think of beaches.
It's a very isolated piece of property on the river that my brother owns and we cut a trail down the mountain through the woods to it.
4 wheeler access only or walk.
Or a 4 x 4 that you don't care about scuffing up.
There is a big sandbar there so we started calling it the beach.
I'll save you some Maker's Mark if you bring me a quart of untaxed whiskey from Wilkes county.
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Old 18-01-07, 07:45 PM   #69
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Nope.
I'll be sitting on the beach knocking back shooters of Maker's Mark.

By the way the fear isn't working any more.

The world is NOT going to end if we DON'T attack Iran.

Just like America was not going to be sprouting mushroom clouds if we did not invade Iraq.

Same bold faced lies; different country.

War with Iran?
No thanks.
One clusterfuck was enough.

If you and the neocons want war with Iran so badly; move to Israel.
I hear that they will be starting one with them very soon and seeing as how they have a population of less than 7 million people, I'm quite certain they would welcome you with open "arms".
Nice to hear you're not afraid. But keep two things in mind: a) this is my analysis, not the administration's, and b) I'm not advocating war, I'm warning of it's coming. Since your kind will most likely keep the US out of Iran's affairs for as long as possible I'm pretty sure we'll be totally unable to stop whatever is going to happen. I only hope you won't have to eat your words in a few years. If you're the one to say I told you so and not me, I'll be more than happy.
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Old 19-01-07, 08:01 AM   #70
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Since your kind will most likely keep the US out of Iran's affairs for as long as possible I'm pretty sure we'll be totally unable to stop whatever is going to happen.
Seeing TG's post on the news that China can now knock out satellites makes me ask...

what about China.?.they don't invade parts of the middle east or meddle in their affairs anywhere as much as UK/US they don't have the media in all their cities controlled by parties only interested in making it a one sided issue, no. they do not really
need to worry about being hated by Muslims.

I find it interesting that the west a few hundred years ago got much of the technologies from the near and far east that helped form the technologies we use today, once apon a time the travelers from the east brought back more and more ideas philosophies and culture to the emerging western world. many things like the fact we use zero come from there, it's in the history books but it's not being taught.

so should China worry if nukes start flying over there ? they have enough interest in the area to
want to at least to not want to see things completely destroyed, but the west somehow must have the injustices it has perpetrated against the region undone. Maybe even learn one of the biggest lessons of its existence.

Reexamine the last two or three hundred years of the involvement of the west in that area, and the emigration of certain ethnic races from the region to our cities and why when the immigration to our cities reached a certain threshold about 10 or so years ago ,where it had become much more even in numbers we find our selves suddenly in a war where one of the parties becomes an unrelenting dishonest enemy who's goal is to only destroy the west by any means possible
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Old 19-01-07, 10:58 AM   #71
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Right - this may surprise you knife but there is a world outside of America and in this World outside of America many counties are saying the same thing. Also in the World outside of America there is this organization, a rather useless one but all the same, they call themselves the United Nations, they just put sanctions against Iran because of their growing threat to peace. So let us take Bush out of the equation. Unless you are talking about the drone Iran supposedly shot down, American sources in Iraq deny it. If you would rather believe a Extremist who hates America over your know government that is your right.

So Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, (Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf) - Egypt, Israel, Britain, and The UN to name a few, are all conspiring with the Bush Administration? I find this hard to believe but I will leave a quote below which may help it make a little more sense. Your hated toward your government is blinding you, only a fool can believe an Extremist like President Tom should have nuclear weapons. I hope the world is wrong and nothing happens, do want another Cold War scenario? I am all for a peaceful resolution, nothing could be better, but doing nothing is not the answer, I am not saying war is the answer, but you can not just stand on the sidelines, cross your fingers and hope everything will just be ok. We all need to realize that these problems aren’t about politics or party lines, at the end of the day, you are not Democrats or Republicans, you are Americans, and this problem applies equally to us all. It is the religious leaders, the Ayatollahs who call the shots and one thing history has taught us about Iran, They don't make threats - they make promises.

“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.” — Bertrand Russell, Roads to Freedom
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Old 19-01-07, 11:14 AM   #72
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a cold war type nuclear stand off is enevitable
if not already happening..
didn't the US threaten to send Pakistan back to the stone age a little while ago ?
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Old 19-01-07, 12:10 PM   #73
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so should China worry if nukes start flying over there ? they have enough interest in the area to
want to at least to not want to see things completely destroyed, but the west somehow must have the injustices it has perpetrated against the region undone. Maybe even learn one of the biggest lessons of its existence.
I have a gut feeling that the US and China made a clandestine deal where the US promised to keep Iran's nuclear program under control if China promised to keep North Korea's nuclear program under control. China has been curiously cooperative up until now, maybe they really are afraid that a nuclear Iran would disrupt their burgeoning industries. That's why I think any nuclear war or cold war involving Iran would invariably involve China too. They're not as dependent on the Middle East's oil as we are but they know they will be soon. Maybe the US is letting Iran get away with making nukes as a way of backhanding China for letting North Korea make nukes.
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Old 19-01-07, 12:24 PM   #74
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yeh..interesting take
can't say i disagree too much with any of that..
i must be missing something
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Old 19-01-07, 02:30 PM   #75
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Once N.Korea gets threatening enough, Japan will grow balls again and become a serious military power in the region. That's China's main incentive to rein in N.Korea.
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Old 19-01-07, 03:24 PM   #76
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News at 11: NKorea says nuke talks with US reached 'agreement'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070119...weaponsustalks
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Old 20-01-07, 02:02 PM   #77
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U.S. plans envision broad attack on Iran: analyst

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. contingency planning for military action against
Iran's nuclear program goes beyond limited strikes and would effectively unleash a war against the country, a former U.S. intelligence analyst said on Friday.


"I've seen some of the planning ... You're not talking about a surgical strike," said Wayne White, who was a top Middle East analyst for the State Department's bureau of intelligence and research until March 2005.

"You're talking about a war against Iran" that likely would destabilize the Middle East for years, White told the Middle East Policy Council, a Washington think tank.

"We're not talking about just surgical strikes against an array of targets inside Iran. We're talking about clearing a path to the targets" by taking out much of the Iranian Air Force, Kilo submarines, anti-ship missiles that could target commerce or U.S. warships in the Gulf, and maybe even Iran's ballistic missile capability, White said.

"I'm much more worried about the consequences of a U.S. or Israeli attack against Iran's nuclear infrastructure," which would prompt vigorous Iranian retaliation, he said, than civil war in
Iraq, which could be confined to that country.

President George W. Bush has stressed he is seeking a diplomatic solution to the dispute over Iran's nuclear program.

But he has not taken the military option off the table and his recent rhetoric, plus tougher financial sanctions and actions against Iranian involvement in Iraq, has revived talk in Washington about a possible U.S. attack on Iran.

The Bush administration and many of its Gulf allies have expressed growing concern about Iran's rising influence in the region and the prospect of it acquiring a nuclear weapon.

Middle East expert Kenneth Katzman argued "Iran's ascendancy is not only manageable but reversible" if one understands the Islamic republic's many vulnerabilities.

Tehran's leaders have convinced many experts Iran is a great nation verging on "superpower" status, but the country is "very weak ... (and) meets almost no known criteria to be considered a great nation," said Katzman of the
Library of Congress' Congressional Research Service.

The economy is mismanaged and "quite primitive," exporting almost nothing except oil, he said.

Also, Iran's oil production capacity is fast declining and in terms of conventional military power, "Iran is a virtual non-entity," Katzman added.

The administration, therefore, should not go out of its way to accommodate Iran because the country is in no position to hurt the United States, and at some point "it might be useful to call that bluff," he said.

But Katzman cautioned against early confrontation with Iran and said if there is a "grand bargain" that meets both countries' interests, that should be pursued.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/iran_usa_experts_dc
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Old 21-01-07, 12:33 PM   #78
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Some interesting political intrigue surrounding that story, multi. Nice find.

It appears that part of the administration's diplomatic strategy is leaking fake military plans to members of the press who in turn will confirm to Iranian skeptics that Bush's sideways threat of military action is serious. Of course this is a ploy to make Iran more eager to talk to the US when it finally opens diplomatic channels. It's also a manipulation of the American press, but as long as they believe they're actually discrediting the president they're all to eager to help.
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Old 21-01-07, 12:52 PM   #79
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it seems the latest I heard out of Iran is the Ayatolla has ordered the president to 'stay out of all matters nuclear'

haven't looked for any source for this yet.. but it sounds like things could be happing there that might become more diplomatic and with some possible outcome like the NK talks on the same subject

it could need a false flag attack of some sort to unleash the dogs of war
because i get the feeling that there are some very interested parties that want very much for a nuclear confontaion to happen with Iran
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Old 21-01-07, 04:02 PM   #80
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it sounds like things could be happing there that might become more diplomatic and with some possible outcome like the NK talks on the same subject
There are no coincidences, only the illusion of them, or so I've heard. I don't believe that a diplomatic solution to both nuclear threats will come swiftly or easily, but this is a good sign that a diplomatic solution is possible.

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it could need a false flag attack of some sort to unleash the dogs of war
because i get the feeling that there are some very interested parties that want very much for a nuclear confontaion to happen with Iran
Not surprisingly the people who invested millions in R&D in bunker buster missiles want to see their investment mature. I hope to see them disappointed. On this occasion the Democrats may actually make the world safer, for once.
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