What was Mr. Bush thinking?

[goldie]

February 7, 2005

Jefferson Press Release

“While we work to widen the Industrial Canal and provide hurricane protection for our coast, this budget cuts the New Orleans Army Corps of Engineers budget by over $53 million, providing zero funding for the Inner Harbor Lock Canal project and with a $26 million cut for Southeastern Louisiana hurricane protection and drainage projects. The total budget is cut to $289 million, down from $323 million for 2005.

“The federal budget is, at its core, an expression of our nation’s priorities. Once again, through this disappointing budget, this administration confirms that it is wholly out of touch with America’s values and the real needs of people in Louisiana and throughout the nation. Over the coming months, I will fight for a budget that reflects the needs of the people of New Orleans and Louisiana. A responsible budget is the first step towards building a future worthy of the trust of the American people, the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, and the aspirations of all of America’s children.”

Congressman William J. Jefferson
SECOND DISTRICT, LOUISIANA

Probably that La. could wait for the next administration to provide the finances to build newer/better levee systems?


I'm sure it doesn't give Mr. Jefferson or the citizens of La. any satisfaction to say they tried to tell Him so.


..sorry, i'm not normally a politically vocal person but this particular issue hit a nerve after the hurricane.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by goldie

..sorry, i'm not normally a politically vocal person but this particular issue hit a nerve after the hurricane.

yeah, me neither:

Originally Posted by theknife

...make the connection between a multi-billion dollar war and high taxes, underfunded schools, underpaid teachers, high college costs, reduced mental health services, reduced government aid programs, medicare cutbacks, projected Social Security bankruptcy, national parks cutbacks, rotting roads and bridges, etc etc

[albed]

So what does that have to do with Bush. Even a retarded congressman should know that money gets allocated by the legislative branch not the executive. Did he introduce any bills or amendments for more money?


This just sounds like the tired old political ploy where people who decide to live in flood zones and hurricane prone beaches try to get government money to subsidize their choice instead of paying their own way.

[multi]

i was just reading about this thing here

and sort of related metafilter story on Bunnatine
here


30 year itch

[Sinner]

These cuts went into effect 2 months ago, it has nothing to do with the situation going on in New Orleans right now. Two months is not enough time to see a monster storm coming and re-enforce the levees and improve pumps. I would say both parties, federal and local are at fault for not being prepared. That’s if you need someone to blame. Not a time to start pointing figures, visit this web site instead http://www.redcross.org/

[floydian slip]

Originally Posted by spinner

These cuts went into effect 2 months ago, it has nothing to do with the situation going on in New Orleans right now. Two months is not enough time to see a monster storm coming and re-enforce the levees and improve pumps.

well... maybe 2 years is enough then

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. (Much of the research here is from Nexis, which is why some articles aren't linked.)

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to this Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness:

[goldie]

this isn't the first storm that's been in the gulf.

the others were just warm-ups since that last big one in 1969.

mr. jefferson said he wouldn't stop trying and i'm sure he didn't. his cause just wasn't deemed important enough to the right people i fear.

go figure.

btw, i wouldn't give a dime to the red cross.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by goldie

this isn't the first storm that's been in the gulf.

Really!!??

the others were just warm-ups since that last big one in 1969.

If you knew this for a fact why didn't you tell anybody? BTW what is your special technique to predict hurricanes?

mr. jefferson said he wouldn't stop trying and i'm sure he didn't. his cause just wasn't deemed important enough to the right people i fear.

go figure.

and what people are you talking about?

btw, i wouldn't give a dime to the red cross.

Then keep your money, no-one asked you too.

[floydian slip]

Originally Posted by goldie

btw, i wouldn't give a dime to the red cross.

same here... the red cross is a bureaucratic wasteland, the salvation army gets my donations

[albed]

Originally Posted by Sinner

If you knew this for a fact why didn't you tell anybody? BTW what is your special technique to predict hurricanes?

It's called statistics; a type of math. A lot of things in life must suprise you if you don't understand it.

[multi]

what are the odds that one of these systems will become a hurricane
in a day or 2 ?

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by floydian slip

well... maybe 2 years is enough then

So does this mean the left is done with the grieving mother for political gain?

A quote “We haven't even buried the dead yet, and they're trying to pin the untold lives and livelihoods lost on an opponent for political gain.”

And No two years is not enough, the levees are 15 feet high. The storm surge was about 22 feet high, do the math, are you having me believe that the Bush Administration purposefully underfunded the levees, and that this underfunding directly caused the catastrophe in New Orleans?

Now do some research and you learn New Orleans has spent $450,000,000 on the levees over the last ten years, that leaves at least $250,000,000 in crucial projects which has not been spent. They are spending about $45,000,000 per year, that gives them almost six years worth of crucial projects yet to be done. The money was reduced starting in 2004, so in fact no more than 1.5 years of the remaining six years worth of projects was incomplete due to funding cuts. All the rest wouldn't have been done yet anyway. But somehow, finishing 25% of the crucial projects remaining would have saved the city.


http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3332317

Engineers developed several possible scenarios for what might have caused the catastrophic breach in a levee, which is essentially an earthen berm topped by several feet of concrete.

Corps of Engineers officials said their analysis indicated that a limited amount of water washed over the top of the levee in waves, scouring and weakening the foundation on the levee's dry side.

Suhayda said that's possible. But another possibility is that, during the half-day floodwaters built up in Lake Pontchartrain and the canal, water may have percolated through the earthen part of the berm, undermining it.

That effect, combined with the cumulative pressure over time, may have caused a breakthrough.

"There's no question that those kind of conditions might have just reached the limit of what that particular levee could handle," said James "Bob" Bailey, a flood and wind hazard risk expert with ABS consulting in Houston.
It's also possible the levee was older and had degraded as all earthen and concrete structures do, he said.

A final possibility is that an unknown, massive chunk of debris struck the levee at some point during the night, causing a breach.

Today's breach came after New Orleans had, almost miraculously, survived a hurricane many engineers feared would send water gushing over the long, 15-foot levee that protects the city's north shore from Lake Pontchartrain."

In other words, even if the Federal government had sent trillions of dollars, it wouldn't have made a difference. A 15-foot wall doesn't contain a 22-foot surge. Once the water is over the levee in any quantity, it starts scouring the levee from the face of the earth.

Cont later…

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by albed

It's called statistics; a type of math. A lot of things in life must suprise you if you don't understand it.

from Popular Science in May 2005:

The Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale defines a category-5 storm as one with "winds greater than 155 miles per hour and storm surge generally greater than 18 feet." Although hurricanes of this magnitude slamming directly into New Orleans are extremely rare—occurring perhaps every 500 to 1,000 years—should one come ashore, the resulting storm surge would swell Lake Pontchartrain (a brackish sea adjoining the Gulf of Mexico), overtop the levees, and submerge the city under up to 40 feet of water. Once this happened, the levees would "serve as a bathtub," explains Harley Winer, chief of coastal engineering for the Army Corps's New Orleans District. The water would get trapped between the Mississippi levees and the hurricane-protection levees. "This is a highly improbable event," Winer points out, "but within the realm of possibility."

[Drakonix]

So now we are trying to blame President Bush and the government for damage caused by a Category 5 hurricane that is historically among the three most powerful hurricanes known? Nice try, but I'll not swallow that spoonful of low grade fertilizer.

Unless President Bush can wave a magic wand and stop hurricanes and/or raise the city of New Orleans above sea level, what happened with Katrina and New Orleans was a situation that could have happened at any time in the past, could (and probably will) happen again.

It could have been a lot worse. If the eye of the hurricane had hit about 40 or 50 miles further to the west, the storm surge would have been much stronger and made the current situation look tame in contrast.

Blaming President Bush or the government for (Category 5) hurricane related flooding in a city that has always been below sea level and is completely surrounded by waterways and wetlands is ridiculous.

There are a lot of folks (who happen to work for the government) who have done, and are continuing to do everything they can prior to and in the wake of this devastating storm.

Everyone has the right to speak as they wish. I choose to not disrespect the efforts of government and emergency services personnel with politically motivated bitching.

[legion]

Not a political post so forgive me for going off topic for a sec.

I think the experts in sinners quote are spot on.

Suhayda said that's possible. But another possibility is that, during the half-day floodwaters built up in Lake Pontchartrain and the canal, water may have percolated through the earthen part of the berm, undermining it.

That effect, combined with the cumulative pressure over time, may have caused a breakthrough.

"There's no question that those kind of conditions might have just reached the limit of what that particular levee could handle," said James "Bob" Bailey, a flood and wind hazard risk expert with ABS consulting in Houston.
It's also possible the levee was older and had degraded as all earthen and concrete structures do, he said.

In Dutch it is called a Kwel there is no English word for it but it is best translated as spring, well, or fountain if you will. It happens here every other fall/autumn and spring or so.

The water pressure on the river, lake or sea side of the levee will force water straight through it and the weight of the water on the “wet” side will push ground water up on the dry side, effectively weaken the levee. Not only the levee itself but also the ground it is build on.
Considering that New Orleans is below sea level ground water levels will be near to the surface so it doesn’t take all that much pressure (relatively speaking) before it will show up behind the levee.

Even if you build levees that are three miles high it will not protect you. Pumps are only effective over x distance and x height, even if you are able to build pumps large enough to handle such an amount of water where are you going to pump all that excess water too? Back into the lake, river or sea won’t do you any good for it won’t reduce the pressure for very obvious reasons. And pumping it all the way to Nevada where it might do some good is next to impossible.

We Dutchies know by now that if water wants to come in, it will, no matter how hard you try to keep it out. The only thing I can think of that might come close to a solution is that the state designate certain areas of (farm) land that can be flooded on purpose by breaking the levees in certain places to reduce the stress on them down stream and in densely populated areas. When it happens the farmers have to be compensated for the loss of his crops but I guess it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than rebuilding half a city.


attached image: small Kwel, the levee looks intact but water is clearly shown on the “dry” side of it. It is a prelude to a breakthrough

[theknife]

just in case you were wondering where your government's priorities lie:

U.S. Won't Relocate Soldiers for Katrina

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - There will be no large-scale shifting of U.S. troops from Iraq and Afghanistan to help with disaster relief in Louisiana and Mississippi, a U.S. Central Command spokesman said Thursday.

[albed]

Awww. What a shame for your terrorist allies knife.

[Drakonix]

It would be stupid and unnecessarily expensive to relocate soldiers on duty in Afghanistan and Iraq to help with Katrina relief efforts (given current needs and availability of aid).

Why? Because there are still plenty troops available still in the Country. Approximately 38,200 Army, Navy, and National Guard personnel have already been sent into the effected areas. Why bring soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq when they can get them from Louisiana, Mississippi, and Wisconsin (to name a few)? About one third of the troops are going to be allocated to help in law enforcement efforts such as help enforce curfew and quell the looting.

http://www.ngb.army.mil/

Further, military personnel are not the only folks aiding in the relief effort. Further personnel will come from other jurisdictions under "mutual aid", State and Federal disaster relief organizations, organizations like the Red Cross, and a heavy dose of disaster relief volunteers.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it takes time for the government to get things going in a disaster relief effort. The end result is that the effected areas will get whatever help they need from the Government and from private sector companies and individuals.

The Federal and State governments are actually doing pretty good so far. They were able to move in some personnel and equipment to outlying areas before the hurricane hit. Remember, this is the aftermath of a historically significant hurricane. It will take 1 - 2 years to undo the damage to the city structures. You can't reasonably expect overnight miracles.

Reading the text with an open mind also helps, bold emphasis added:

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - There will be no large-scale shifting of U.S. troops from Iraq and Afghanistan to help with disaster relief in Louisiana and Mississippi, a U.S. Central Command spokesman said Thursday.

This means there could be some shifting of troops if this becomes necessary.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Drakonix

It would be stupid and unnecessarily expensive to relocate soldiers on duty in Afghanistan and Iraq to help with Katrina relief efforts (given current needs and availability of aid).

Why? Because there are still plenty troops available still in the Country. Approximately 38,200 Army, Navy, and National Guard personnel have already been sent into the effected areas. Why bring soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq when they can get them from Louisiana, Mississippi, and Wisconsin (to name a few)? About one third of the troops are going to be allocated to help in law enforcement efforts such as help enforce curfew and quell the looting.

http://www.ngb.army.mil/

Further, military personnel are not the only folks aiding in the relief effort. Further personnel will come from other jurisdictions under "mutual aid", State and Federal disaster relief organizations, organizations like the Red Cross, and a heavy dose of disaster relief volunteers.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it takes time for the government to get things going in a disaster relief effort. The end result is that the effected areas will get whatever help they need from the Government and from private sector companies and individuals.

The Federal and State governments are actually doing pretty good so far. They were able to move in some personnel and equipment to outlying areas before the hurricane hit. Remember, this is the aftermath of a historically significant hurricane. It will take 1 - 2 years to undo the damage to the city structures. You can't reasonably expect overnight miracles.

Reading the text with an open mind also helps, bold emphasis added:



This means there could be some shifting of troops if this becomes necessary.

oh yeah, the situation looks well in hand. those darn New Orleans Emergency Management officials just don't seem to be able keep an open mind:

New Orleans in Anarchy With Fights, Rapes
By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer

Thursday, September 1, 2005
(09-01) 17:11 PDT NEW ORLEANS, (AP) --

New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday, as corpses lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out and storm survivors battled for seats on the buses that would carry them away from the chaos. The tired and hungry seethed, saying they had been forsaken.

"I'm not sure I'm going to get out of here alive," said Canadian tourist Larry Mitzel, who handed a reporter his business card in case he goes missing. "I'm scared of riots. I'm scared of the locals. We might get caught in the crossfire."

Four days after Hurricane Katrina roared in with a devastating blow that inflicted potentially thousands of deaths, the frustration, fear and anger mounted, despite the promise of 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting, plans for a $10 billion recovery bill in Congress and a government relief effort President Bush called the biggest in U.S. history.

New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly lawless city.

[theknife]

Katrina Donations Rise as Bush Taps Father, Clinton for Effort

Sept. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Contributions for victims of Hurricane Katrina climbed to at least $82 million as President George W. Bush asked his father and former President Bill Clinton to lead a fund-raising effort.

Corporate giving made up a significant amount of the total, according to the Chronicle of Philanthropy, as companies from Abbott Laboratories to Johnson Controls Inc. pledge money and supplies. Jerry Lewis's annual Labor Day telethon will include celebrity appeals for Katrina victims and the Muscular Dystrophy Association plans to give $1 million to help.

``As people focus more on what needs to be done, clearly it's going to be one of the most significant philanthropic efforts that America has put together,'' said Evan Goldstein, a spokesman for the Chronicle of Philanthropy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...top_world_news

i doubt if i'm the first person to bring this up and i'm sure i won't be the last:

do we keep pumping money into Iraq at the rate of almost a billion dollars per week, while we attempt to fund relief efforts in Louisiana and Mississippi with charitable donations? so the people of Bagdhad can bank on the US taxpayer, but the people of Biloxi and New Orleans have to count on charity?

wtf is wrong with this picture?