Deadly Milestones

[theknife]

US death toll in Iraq passes 1000...no surprise there, everyone saw it coming.
meanwhile, the Iraqi death toll is estimated at somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000....

Iraqi dead include not only insurgents, police and soldiers but also civilian men, women and children caught in crossfire, blown apart by explosives or shot by mistake both by fellow Iraqis or by American soldiers and their multinational allies. And they include the victims of crime that has surged in the instability that followed the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime.

i'm not sure which is the bigger tragedy - the US soldiers who became canon fodder in this mess or the thousands of dead Iraqis who never asked to be 'liberated".

U.S. officials said they didn't have the resources to track civilian deaths during the U.S.-led occupation, which ended officially June 28. Iraq's central authorities also haven't reported comprehensive figures on civilian deaths - while record-keeping was meticulous under Saddam, the interim government didn't even begin trying to keep track until five months ago.

don't ask, don't tell, eh? difficult to sort out the total Iraqi body count, let alone how many were participants and how many were innocent bystanders.

''It is difficult to establish the right number of casualties,'' said a spokeswoman for Amnesty International, Nicole Choueiry. Her London-based human rights organization estimates more than 10,000 Iraqi civilians died in the first year of the conflict alone.

However, Amnesty's figure was based in part on media reports that often simply repeated claims of American and Iraqi officials. Iraq is as large as California and much of the country is too dangerous for independent teams to investigate more than a handful of death claims.

Iraq Body Count, a private group that bases its figures in part on reports by 40 media outlets, puts the number of civilian deaths since the conflict began at between 11,793 and 13,802.

Hazem al-Radini at the Human Rights Organization in Iraq said his group estimates the toll at more than 30,000 civilian deaths. He said the group didn't have any statistics and based the figure on reports by Iraqi news media.

but by all counts, it would be safe to assume that there were at least 10,000 civilian non-combatant deaths since we invaded Iraq....so one has to wonder this: where are the pro-lifers on this subject? i can google pro-life groups and come up with thousands of pro-life websites...all of whom are bitching and moaning about abortion in China, stem cell research in the US, euthanasia in Belgium, etc. but apparently, the ongoing civilian death toll in Iraq isn't a "pro-life" isue.

make no mistake, these people do care about kids - right up until the minute they're born.

who would Jesus bomb?

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/252/...k_Omar_:.shtml

[JackSpratts]

it's a f*cking outrage for both countries.

- js.

[albed]

Originally Posted by theknife

but by all counts, it would be safe to assume that there were at least 10,000 civilian non-combatant deaths since we invaded Iraq....so one has to wonder this: where are the pro-lifers on this subject? i can google pro-life groups and come up with thousands of pro-life websites...all of whom are bitching and moaning about abortion in China, stem cell research in the US, euthanasia in Belgium, etc. but apparently, the ongoing civilian death toll in Iraq isn't a "pro-life" isue.

Come on knife. Don't you already have enough people whining with you that you don't need to whine about people who aren't whining?

It's a war...people die...it's all thousands of miles away...you're safe...relax.

[legion]

Originally Posted by theknife

but by all counts, it would be safe to assume that there were at least 10,000 civilian non-combatant deaths since we invaded Iraq....so one has to wonder this: where are the pro-lifers on this subject? i can google pro-life groups and come up with thousands of pro-life websites...all of whom are bitching and moaning about abortion in China, stem cell research in the US, euthanasia in Belgium, etc. but apparently, the ongoing civilian death toll in Iraq isn't a "pro-life" isue.

make no mistake, these people do care about kids - right up until the minute they're born.

who would Jesus bomb?

isn't that the same as when i search for columbine i get several threads within this forum but not one about the school in russia?

[theknife]

Originally Posted by albed

Come on knife. Don't you already have enough people whining with you that you don't need to whine about people who aren't whining?

lol....that's actually pretty funny

actually, what happens is i spend a lot of time in my car...and all i get on the the radio, all day, is non-stop conservative rightie whining. by the end of the day, i need to vent so i come here.

Originally Posted by toy boy

isn't that the same as when i search for columbine i get several threads within this forum but not one about the school in russia?

fair point - if that massacre in Russia had occurred here, it would be the only thing on the front pages for the next month....and if it happened in some Third World country, it wouldn't even get the headlines it has now.

165 kids dead....it only deepens my conviction that, if there is a God, He really doesn't give a shit what we do to each other.

[legion]

Originally Posted by theknife

165 kids dead....it only deepens my conviction that, if there is a God, He really doesn't give a shit what we do to each other.

I couldn't agree more

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by albed

It's a war...people die...it's all thousands of miles away...you're safe...relax.

[START SARCASM]So nice to hear that you are so comfy with that concept. Guess you don't care for those US army and allies that dies every day over there. Ever thought of the future generations, on how they will have to pay up the bill of this insane & unjustified war?

Even tho it's ''all thousand of miles away'' , it's still happening[/END SARCASM]

[albed]

Originally Posted by theknife

lol....that's actually pretty funny

actually, what happens is i spend a lot of time in my car...and all i get on the the radio, all day, is non-stop conservative rightie whining. by the end of the day, i need to vent so i come here.

Heck with their anti-abortion law getting overturned by federal courts I imagine they're squealing like stuck pigs now. Should be pleasant listening.

[albed]

Originally Posted by miss_silver

[START SARCASM]So nice to hear that you are so comfy with that concept. Guess you don't care for those US army and allies that dies every day over there. Ever thought of the future generations, on how they will have to pay up the bill of this insane & unjustified war?

Even tho it's ''all thousand of miles away'' , it's still happening[/END SARCASM]

There's nothing I can do and it has no immediate effect on me so there's no sense in getting upset.

What are you getting all worked up over? It has even less effect on you.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by theknife

165 kids dead....it only deepens my conviction that, if there is a God, He really doesn't give a shit what we do to each other.

And I couldn't disagree more, but as long as we're second guessing God's actions (or inaction) I have some thoughts. If he cared to correct us he'd post here himself, but he's probably tired of repeating himself for the ten billionth time when his word is already there for anybody to read. I would argue that he gave us advice (in the form of commandments that we, none the less, have the choice to obey) in his compassion for us, and he doesn't interfere because we have to learn for ourselves. Some might ask him to save us all from war, poverty, etc., but he's already told us how to do those things for ourselves. Those who wonder why he allows tragedies to happen are really only taking their free will for granted, something which I consider a gift that carries a lot of responsibility.

Okay I'm ending my religious rant. Now lets get back to politics as usual.

[albed]

Well why doesn't he save us from natural disasters then? Can't blame mankind for those hurricanes and earthquakes.

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by albed

What are you getting all worked up over? It has even less effect on you.

How so, how can you say it has less effect on me, how can you dare make such a statement?!? Each loss of life affects me FYI. You might not notice but some of us have a reality dose of what is truly happening. The Iraq war is wrong.

[albed]

I can say it has less effect on you because Canadians aren't doing the dying and future Canadians won't have to pay the bill.

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by albed

I can say it has less effect on you because Canadians aren't doing the dying and future Canadians won't have to pay the bill.

Guess then we aren't such good buisness partners afterall As for canadians not being in the war, the US gov didn't classify us as ''Against US'' category, wonder why... Also, we didn't go to war for iraq because we recognised it was a unjustified war from the beginning. Even tho any canadians are dying over there, we went to afghanistan. Still hurts me to watch the butcher's bill grow heavy each day.

Any more question before I retire for the night?

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by albed

Well why doesn't he save us from natural disasters then? Can't blame mankind for those hurricanes and earthquakes.

Can't blame anyone, really, that's why we call them natural disasters. As far as I know God never said it was his job to make things right. He tells us what to do in matters of morality, but in matters of hurricanes and earthquakes, well we have scientists who inform us of the danger, and people choose to ignore them too. It's really just common sense stuff, commandments and weather reports both. Why do people make bad decisions when they've been provided with ample wisdom beforehand? Probably just to prove they can.

[albed]

Sounds like you're still trying to blame people for getting killed. It's the poor people's fault for living in mud huts when earthquakes hit or not being able to fly off their caribbean island before a hurricane.

So it goes back to -if god exists he really doesn't give a shit.

[legion]

@mazer you said :' Why do people make bad decisions when they've been provided with ample wisdom beforehand'

Please don't tell me you mean the bible with this. Isn't the TRUTH always found within ones own religion? I think you get my drift here, different relions different 'bibles' all parties are claiming that 'theirs' is the only 'God' there is.

you said:' I would argue that he gave us advice in the form of commandments'

Great .... didn't he also drowned the world population with a flood didn't his followers (moses) killed their peers for building an icon? whipe out all the first born sons of egypt? i don't think it is a wise thing to drag the bible into this, for it shows that god isn't a nice being

@miss silver i think albed lacks the ability to feel empathy for those who's sons and/or daughters got killed in Iraq coz he knows of no one close to him that is under any threat over there and since he has no clue to what impact a war zone can have on someone it is pretty easy for him to shoot his mouth off.

On the otherhand the war might be injust to you (and with the international law book in your hand you are right) i don't think there was an alternative either. If a country might form a danger to Canada i don't believe your goverment would just sit by to see what will happen....... i am pretty sure Canada would act. As America did, Russia did or the Netherlands Would if we/you were threatend.

However i do remember before the war in Iraq started George W. read a letter from a ten year old girl or something that he could have her dad for his war on national television. This got me wondering who is worse Hamas or .......well???

[albed]

Feel free to fill the old drama queen's shoes.

Three soldiers killed today in Iraq..."Oh this is so tragic, I feel just terrible...I can't think about it without crying...those poor men"-one woman-I mean those poor people fighting so bravely"-driving in a convoy-"I mean serving so gallantly"-correction: nobody was harmed in today's attack-...SHIT

[Mazer]

Being just and being nice aren't necessarily the same thing, toy boy, though injustice is never nice. Those biblical examples you pointed out lead me to believe that God has to be fair but he doesn't need to be merciful. From an ethical standpoint I think fairness and mercy sometimes oppose each other, but that may depend on which side of the conflict your on, who the benefactor of justice is. These happen to be non-religious themes, cropping up throughout history without the benefit of devine revelation, but the fact that God subscirbes to these philosophies neither discredits nor adds weight to them. The bible is simply one source of wisdom.

Albed, I'm not assigning blame to people for getting themselves killed just like I know you're not blaming God for doing nothing to save them. My point is that people who think God should save the world completly misunderstand his reason for putting us in harm's way to begin with. We live so that we can die someday, and there are lessons to be learned in that process. If we never experienced pain and loss then we'd be pretty dumb, defenseless creatures. God has no use for such a being, so we're given free will and then subject to mortality. "Thou shall not murder" he said, but even if he hadn't we would have learned it eventually because murder is a crime against man as well as God.

[albed]

The original theme was "if there is a god he really doesn't give a shit"

completly misunderstand his reason for putting us in harm's way to begin with.

If we never experienced pain and loss then we'd be pretty dumb, defenseless creatures. God has no use for such a being,

So "if there is a god he actually does us harm to make us better servants"

Much better.