Volveran

[malvachat]

Come on all you so fair minded americans explain this to me.

http://hometown.aol.com/temacuba/volveran.html

[theknife]

Originally Posted by malvachat

Come on all you so fair minded americans explain this to me.

http://hometown.aol.com/temacuba/volveran.html

well, it's quite easily explained...

you see, us fair-minded Americans are in the grips of a radical, neo-conservative right-wing government who are, due to the nuances of electoral politics, required to curry favor with the large and influential Cuban population in the crucial swing state of Florida in order to win the next election and maintain power. therefore, in the grand US tradition of trampling human rights to perpetuate foreign policy objectives, which in turn are designed to achieve political objectives, the Bush administration has made it policy to keeps it's nose buried deeply in the asshole of the anti-Castro lobby and crush any flies who happen to have been buzzing around, attracted to the stink.

clear as a fucking bell, no?

[Ice]

clear as a fucking bell, no?



Perfectly

[Heathcliff]

It goes deeper than that. More fundamental and to the point is the fact that capitalism cannot tolerate any economic or social system that makes a mockery of it's ruthless and rapacious exploitation of physical and human resources. As we sit here the US is planning on doing the same thing to China and the EU in the future. It's the old Scorched Earth Policy they took over, whole cloth, from the Nazis. BTW England ain't exactly innocent in this case either.

[malvachat]

Interesting,so far.
I have a book called the people of cuba v the u.s.government.
it lists lots of things that the u.s.has done over the years to cuba.
I always like to here both sides.
Politics I can understand.
But having been in Florida last year and talking to a lot of people,
I'm not covinced.
I did travel about a bit over a three week spell.
Anyway I have just returned from cuba and I found to my surprise,
the people I met and talked to had nothing bad to say about the american
people.
As for the us goverment they had lots to say.None of it good.
As to cubans who have left cuba and now plot againest cuba they have nothing good to say either.
When I asked about their own goverment I was more surprised,
The surport for castro and goverment seems to me to be very strong.
I found the cuba people to be a very mixed bunch.
When we talk about racism cuba have got it sorted.
Everybody was great I had no problems at all.
Havana was a strange place with such a mix of people.
Again I travelled all about.
I knew nobody in cuba when I went.
I now have a dozens of new friends.
Lots of invites to go back.
Anyway,back to the main point.
I have been to the us lots of times and love the place.
It seems to me that this anti-cuban thing needs to be sorted out.
I am very disapointed(not surprised) that the american people allow thier
goverment to treat a small country like cuba the way they do.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Heathcliff

It goes deeper than that. More fundamental and to the point is the fact that capitalism cannot tolerate any economic or social system that makes a mockery of it's ruthless and rapacious exploitation of physical and human resources. As we sit here the US is planning on doing the same thing to China and the EU in the future. It's the old Scorched Earth Policy they took over, whole cloth, from the Nazis. BTW England ain't exactly innocent in this case either.

you give the US policy makers far too much credit, mon frer...the motivations behind our Cuba policy are not so deep or complex. it's presdential politics that drives the Cuba policy and has thru the last 25 years.

the US stands alone in their attempts to isolate Cuba politically and economically - most other countries feel the strategy of fostering economic interdependence is a far more effective way of creating a climate of change in Cuba, just as we do in China (the result of which are little fissures of capitalism and free enterprise breaking out all along it's economic seams). the difference is that there is not a strong, influential, and politically active Chinese expatriate community here in the US that can swing a key battleground state in an election.

Originally Posted by malvachat

I am very disapointed(not surprised) that the american people allow thier goverment to treat a small country like cuba the way they do.

well, there you go...i agree and i feel the same about the war in Iraq (very disappointed but not surprised that the american people allow thier government to invade Iraq for no apparent reason). once again, you have our foreign policy in the hands of a very small, ideologically bent group of people pursuing a political agenda because it favors a particular constituency. the administration needs a bogeyman (be it communism or terrorism), they attach a face to it (like Saddam or Fidel), throw out a few buzz words like "freedom" and "liberty", and the US public generally will buy it - we're not famous for our long attention spans or our ablity to think these things through.

[malvachat]

Yes all of that makes sense,
but is it true?

"that capitalism cannot tolerate any economic or social system that makes a mockery of it's ruthless and rapacious exploitation of physical and human resources"

because,if it is we are all guilty.
usless you are prepared to accept that no one person deserves more than
another it will always happen.
capitalism,is about exploitation.
We all do it in one way or another.

Two quotes.

"If you have money in the bank, in your wallet,
and spare change in a dish...
you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy."

"6% of people,possess 59% of the entire world's wealth
and all 6% live in the United States."

Where would you rather be in the 8%
or the 6%

"What are you prepared to do"

To help change the world

[Heathcliff]

Indeed, we all exploit. Not just capitalists but all living things. Until we have evolved beyond the need for physical bodies (est. 10 million years) it will be so. Even then we may rely on some force from a higher dimension to sustain us. /Carl Sagan mode off.


I like this quote though:

“From each according to his abilities,
To each according to his needs”

- Karl Marx

That seems the most fair and efficient way. Anything else is just crass and obsessive.

(And now all America can hate me, except for a few old Jews from Miami and ex-pat Cubans.)

Congrats on your new friends.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Heathcliff

Indeed, we all exploit. Not just capitalists but all living things. Until we have evolved beyond the need for physical bodies (est. 10 million years) it will be so. Even then we may rely on some force from a higher dimension to sustain us. /Carl Sagan mode off.


I like this quote though:

“From each according to his abilities,
To each according to his needs”

- Karl Marx

That seems the most fair and efficient way. Anything else is just crass and obsessive.

(And now all America can hate me, except for a few old Jews from Miami and ex-pat Cubans.)

Congrats on your new friends.

i swear, you can never find a rightie when you really need one...

[daddydirt]

Originally Posted by theknife

well, it's quite easily explained...

you see, us fair-minded Americans are in the grips of a radical, neo-conservative right-wing government who are, due to the nuances of electoral politics, required to curry favor with the large and influential Cuban population in the crucial swing state of Florida in order to win the next election and maintain power. therefore, in the grand US tradition of trampling human rights to perpetuate foreign policy objectives, which in turn are designed to achieve political objectives, the Bush administration has made it policy to keeps it's nose buried deeply in the asshole of the anti-Castro lobby and crush any flies who happen to have been buzzing around, attracted to the stink.

clear as a fucking bell, no?

In 1998, five such individuals were arrested and tried in, of all places, Miami, Florida, despite their attorneys' requests to move the trial to a city where anti-Cuban prejudice would be less, such as Fort Lauderdale.

don't see how you can blame this one on the Bush administration tk

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by Heathcliff

I like this quote though:

“From each according to his abilities,
To each according to his needs”

- Karl Marx

Yes, it is a good way to live, but it's a bad way to govern a people. Mormons call this idea the Law of Consecration, but whereas the LDS church seeks to establish Zion, Communism only seeks to destroy the notions of economy and wealth, and more than a few communists have also sought to destroy or severly subsidize religion, science, higher education, media, and military, giving Marxism a bad reputation in the process. Karl Marx was a smart man, but far too many of his followers have been very stupid people. From a philosophical standpoint I see Communism as a bad thing, but then as TK points out the reality is that Communist nations do not exist in vacuums, they're constantly influenced by the world economy. Whenever Castro finally dies of old age his people will mourn him and then promptly forget their allegience to his government. Communism in Cuba won't last long without Fidel around, after that who knows what will happen?

[theknife]

Originally Posted by daddydirt

In 1998, five such individuals were arrested and tried in, of all places, Miami, Florida, despite their attorneys' requests to move the trial to a city where anti-Cuban prejudice would be less, such as Fort Lauderdale.

don't see how you can blame this one on the Bush administration tk

only by default, dd, coz they're the administration in currently in power. but you're quite correct - this case would have to have Janet Reno's fingerprints on it and cerainly the Clinton's were as guilty as anyone of perpetuating this silly Cuba bullshit. this stuff goes back to the 50's, i believe, thru Dem & GOP administrations alike....i never understood it - how one group has managed to hold US foreign policy hostage to their wishes for the last 50 years. the only thing i know for sure is that the Cuban ex-pat faction is very powerful - they give lots of money, have great lobbyists, and everyone is scared to piss them off coz the conventional wisdom is that they can make or break a candidate in Florida.

we've had an embargo against Castro for 50 years and it hasn't moved him an inch - you'd think we might think about trying something different

[albed]

Originally Posted by theknife

we've had an embargo against Castro for 50 years and it hasn't moved him an inch - you'd think we might think about trying something different

Google "bay of pigs" and "cia castro assassination".

Don't you weenies learn anything except commie propaganda?

There was a lot of Cuban military intervention in Africa and sneakier stuff in Latin America and the Caribbean as well.

Try learning more and getting high less.

I can see you people's infatuation about the "from each according to his abilities" thing though....you wouldn't have to do squat.

[Heathcliff]

theknife
"i swear, you can never find a rightie when you really need one..."

Uh oh, I think I've got a live one!



He's in there, in my wild gypsy soul, with Mao and Genghis and the whole crew, with his weapons, and genocidal passions. I've learned to shorten his leash considerably though, even laugh at him. I'm laughing at a lot of things these days. Maybe I've finally tripped the boobie hatch, I don't know... that's a lie, actually I do......

[Heathcliff]

Originally Posted by albed

Google "bay of pigs" and "cia castro assassination".

Don't you weenies learn anything except commie propaganda?

SNIP...


according to his abilities" thing though....you wouldn't have to do squat.

Spoken like an old timey slaver. Is that really your view of humanity, that we'er all shiftless and worthless unless forced into involuntary servitude buy one of the (no doubt) God's chosen?

You must be a very discontented or frustrated person at times like that. Try to feel that side of yourself when you think things like that, Go deeply into it and sit back and observe what happens to you emotionally. Don't think about it, don't criticize, just observe.

Let that be your meditation for today.

I dare you. I double dog dare you.

:/

[malvachat]

O.K. so to keep people happy,the policy againest cuba continues.
Thats politics.
What I would like to know.
Did these men get a fair trail?
The Cuban people don't think so.
Therefore to win hearts and minds a retrail might be in order.
I found the Cuban people to be well informed and educated.
Not a repressed people at all.
Of couse I know it's in their interests to be friendly to visters,but
to invite people into their homes and help my wife and I to travel
most of their country was above the call of duty.
My own views are put aside when I am treated with such kindness.
I never once felt uneasy,the same cannot be said about when I was
in Miami last year.
As to what will happen when Castro dies I'm don't know.
The health and education in Cuba is fantastic and is regarded by most of the Cubans I met,as the most importent things.I got the feeling that they would
defend these things,should anybody try to change them.

[albed]

Originally Posted by malvachat

I found the Cuban people to be well informed and educated.
Not a repressed people at all.

Guess you didn't meet any Cuban political prisoners. They're a little off the beaten path. Try to arrange a tour next time you're there.

Originally Posted by malvachat

Of couse I know it's in their interests to be friendly to visters,but
to invite people into their homes and help my wife and I to travel
most of their country was above the call of duty.
My own views are put aside when I am treated with such kindness.

Kind of weak minded of you if that's all it takes. I base my views on less superficial things and don't change them so easily.

Originally Posted by malvachat

As to what will happen when Castro dies I'm don't know.

Same with the Cubans. Not letting them run their own country leaves them lacking the neccessary experience to take over.

Originally Posted by malvachat

The health and education in Cuba is fantastic and is regarded by most of the Cubans I met,as the most importent things.I got the feeling that they would
defend these things,should anybody try to change them.

Of course they'd defend them, they're free. Try to seperate an American from his government benefits, or anyone probably, and you'll get a fight.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by malvachat

Come on all you so fair minded americans explain this to me.

http://hometown.aol.com/temacuba/volveran.html

I ask you, what about the IRA members sitting in English jails. At least the cubans received a trail, the English arrested, jailed, killed Irish men, women and children, sometimes just because they were Irish. Shouldn't the English government release them? Hey my fair minded Englishman? Explain to me why they should not be free.

Originally Posted by malvachat

I have a book called the people of cuba v the u.s.government.
it lists lots of things that the u.s.has done over the years to cuba.

I have a book explaning 800 years of wrong doings by the English towards Ireland and other Countries.

Originally Posted by malvachat

I always like to here both sides.

Really? On all subjects?

Originally Posted by malvachat

Politics I can understand.

So then you understand why bombs were going off in London? Good.

Originally Posted by malvachat

I am very disapointed(not surprised) that the american people allow thier
goverment to treat a small country like cuba the way they do.

Are you disappointed by the way you and all other English people allow there government to treat a small country like Northern Ireland the way they do????

[albed]

Why can't you just stick to the topic Spart, instead of hijacking every other thread for another Ireland/Britain or Palestine/Israel whining rant?

It got old a long time ago.

Can't you figure how to start a new thread?

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by albed

Why can't you just stick to the topic Spart, instead of hijacking every other thread for another Ireland/Britain or Palestine/Israel whining rant?

It got old a long time ago.

Can't you figure how to start a new thread?

Yes I can...and Okay.......