Time Capsule News Collage No. 1

[Ramona_A_Stone]

• SAN ANTONIO, Texas (March 30) - An emotional former President George H.W. Bush on Tuesday defended his son's Iraq war and lashed out at White House critics.

• FALLUJAH, Iraq (March 31) - A vengeful crowd of cheering Iraqis dragged the burned and mutilated bodies of four American contractors through the streets of Fallujah Wednesday after killing them in a vehicle ambush.

• It is "deeply offensive and contemptible" to hear "elites and intellectuals on the campaign trail" dismiss progress in Iraq since last year's overthrow of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, the elder Bush said in a speech to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association annual convention.

"There is something ignorant in the way they dismiss the overthrow of a brutal dictator and the sowing of the seeds of basic human freedom in that troubled part of the world," he said.

• Some had predicted that after Saddam's capture Dec. 13, the insurgency would lose momentum and security for Iraqis and U.S. troops would improve. Instead the killing has continued at roughly a constant pace, and attacks against Iraqi civilians have increased.

• The former president appeared to fight back tears as he complained about media coverage of the younger Bush that he called "something short of fair and balanced."

• BAGHDAD (March 31) - Thousands of Iraqi protesters blocked streets in central Baghdad for hours on Wednesday, demanding the reopening of a newspaper U.S. authorities shut down for what they called incitement to violence.

• Associated Press Television News pictures showed one man beating a charred corpse with a metal pole. Others tied a yellow rope to a body, hooked it to a car and dragged it down the main street of town. Two blackened and mangled corpses were hung from a green iron bridge across the Euphrates.

• "It hurts an awful lot more when it's your son that is being criticized than when they used to get all over my case," said Bush, who has often complained about media coverage of both Bush presidencies.

• "We denounce the occupation and its methods," cleric Sheikh Tahsin al-Itabi said. "They claim to represent freedom -- stopping a newspaper is against freedom..."

• Though none of the alleged weapons of mass destruction have been found, the Bush administration says progress toward a stable democracy is being made.

• In all, at least 597 U.S. troops have died in Iraq since the war began March 20, 2003. Of the total, 459 have died since May 1 when Bush flew onto an aircraft carrier off the California coast to declare the end of major combat.

• The former president, who waged the first Gulf War against Saddam in 1991, described progress in Iraq as "a miracle."

• A man held a printed sign with a skull and crossbones and the phrase ''Fallujah is the cemetery for Americans'' beneath the blackened corpses after they were pulled from the vehicles.

• More than a hundred of Sadr's supporters protesting on Wednesday wore black shirts with Mehdi Army written on them. Four clerics went inside the fortified U.S. compound to meet the Iraqi Governing Council. "If they don't listen to us, I'm ready to go inside without weapons and fight to the death," protester Ali Yasseri said.

• "Iraq is moving forward in hope and not sliding back into despair and terrorism," the senior Bush said.

• ''This is the fate of all Americans who come to Falluja,'' said Mohammad Nafik, one of the crowd surrounding the bodies.

Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a telephone cable, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge and left dangling there.

[JackSpratts]

"they'll welcome us with open nooses."

- js.

[multi]

its all about hearts and minds..

[span]

"It is pretty clear that the coalition can win in Afghanistan and Iraq in one way or another, but it will be a long, hard slog," Rumsfeld wrote.
- October 16, 2003

[floydian slip]

136k

[Sinner]

Think the title should read "Propaganda Capsule News Collage No. 1", RAS, some Iraqi's, some News Media and others are just trying to sway the hearts and minds of Americans, to get the masses wanting the troops pulled from Iraq. It is to bad some need to glorify it with pictures and video. (some media). Alot like John Kerry did with his Anti-soliders and Military campaign's in the 70's.

[Sinner]

IRAQ: How to Clean Up Fallujah


April 2, 2004: The original plan was to let the Iraqi police "clean up" places like Fallujah. This is a Sunni Arab town full of people with blood on their hands. Fallujah was long a prime recruiting ground for the secret police and Republican Guard. Saddam was good to Fallujah, and the thugs of Fallujah were merciless against Saddam's enemies. But Saddam's enemies are the majority of the Iraqi population and soon that majority will be electing a government. This government would send as many police and soldiers to Fallujah as is needed to round up and punish all the guilty. Unfortunately, the way things work in the Middle East, this could easily leave Fallujah a pile of smoking rubble, and most of the population dead or fled. The Arab world would have had to deal with it. Arabs killing Arabs is nothing new, in fact it's quite normal in the Middle East, a land of tyrants, torture chambers and secret police.

However, coalition trainers hoped to have convinced the new Iraqi police to go in Fallujah and smoke out the guilty hordes more precisely and with less bloodshed. Flood Fallujah with Iraqi police and soldiers and go house to house looking for weapons and known, and suspected, criminals. Most of Saddam's thugs operated quite openly. People knew the names. They still know the names. Next year, the Iraqi police could arrest the names, put them on trial, convict them for crimes against humanity and imprison or execute them. This is why the people of Fallujah are so eager to kill outsiders. It's not just a habit they can't shake, it's a defensive mechanism. Eventually, someone is going to come to Fallujah to look for Saddam's thugs, and the thugs know it.

But killing four Americans, and mutilating and displaying the bodies, and doing it joyfully in front of cameras, would have pleased Saddam, and brought rewards to Fallujah. But now it will bring the marines, and the marines are not as good as Iraqi police at telling the good from the bad in Fallujah.



Any Iraqi civilian with a gun will be quickly killed. The most likely plan is to assemble a force of Iraqi police to go in with the marines and quickly interrogate the people of Fallujah and try and find the gunmen before marine bullets do. The police will also spread the word that the marines will keep fighting, and killings Iraqis, until the Iraqi police are told where the killers are and can arrest the bad guys.

All this could get ugly, especially if most of the police brought in are not Sunni Arabs. Using Shia and Kurdish police means you have Iraqi cops with guns, and mental images of much worse atrocities than four dead Americans. But one way or another, Fallujah will "get cleaned up." Actually, most people in Fallujah want it that way. Not everyone in Fallujah supported Saddam, but a large minority did. The rest went along. You don't argue with guys who have short tempers and large guns. The majority is also more likely to identify the guilty if there is some assurance that all, or most of the thugs, are going down quickly. The thugs of Fallujah are still intimidating Iraqis, but for the past year they have only been doing it to the good people of Fallujah. Talk to the Americans and you die. The Sunni Arab police died by the dozens at the hands of these thugs. But if enough police and marines come in and stay long enough, people will talk. What is uncertain at the moment is how much and how long is enough. We're going to find out in the next few weeks.

[Ramona_A_Stone]

...some Iraqi's, some News Media and others are just trying to sway the hearts and minds of Americans, to get the masses wanting the troops pulled from Iraq. It is to bad some need to glorify it with pictures and video.

Yeah I guess it'd be better if we were just kept in the dark about it.

It's funny that when the videos are of us killing Iraqis, you think it's "AWESOME."

from Appache killing video

Originally posted by theknife

masturbation material for conservatives

originally posted by Sinner
....I agree..................That was AWESOME!!!

Originally posted by span
we need more videos of us killing assholes with high powered weaponry.

I guess you might prefer that the media only show us killing the enemy and purge all images of the enemy killing us. It would certainly be good PR for the war effort, but one can't help notice that while you whine about the reportage of actual events in Fallujah being "propaganda," you'd seem to prefer your own brand. I won't call this ironic since I realize the supposed ultimate practicality of such an approach.

This in fact cuts to very intention of my post, simply an observation of how truly ironic it is that the president's dad gives "glorified" lip service to sonny-boy while the facts of what's really going on in Iraq shoot completely over his head in technicolor real time. How we love self-congratulatory assurances being lathered on the American public (at a petrochemical organization function, no less) about the certain success of their 'miraculous' reshaping of Iraq from within--when it's almost exactly a year to the day that Little Lord Bushleroy declared "major combat over" and this last month was the second deadliest since the beginning of the war. Roll it all up in a package of framing anyone who discusses reality being "ignorant elites on the campaign trail" and the irony is truly fucking mind-searing.

It didn't make me "giddy," as span suggested, and I found it far from funny. I didn't see juxtaposing these events from my "high horse" as a particularly stellar intellectual feat as they were already there in the bald reportage that spilled across my monitor on a given day. It was done without comment as I was pretty certain the contrasts would jar any sentient being.

Of course it didn't seem to work any particular magic on span, because apparently he felt that a 6 month old understatement by Rumsfeld somehow smoothed over the ragged edges of the data and made it all just perfectly palatable.

I find myself in the position of having to constantly lubricate all discourse in order to insert the seemingly unthinkable idea that when a politician starts a war, stakes his image on it and clings to it for dear life through a campaign season, he and everyone around him develop a greater and greater tendency to talk out their asses about it. In fact, the more the actual effort may falter or prove difficult, the more gas gets expelled, until eventually the official noise bears no resemblance to reality at all. I'm not comparing this war itself to Vietnam, but the homefront attitudes look and behave exactly as they did in that war--and this in itself is a war of information.

Of course I don't expect Georgie Senior to lament about the astoundingly low morale and startingly high suicide rates among troops over the summer, or to break down and freak out about how glaring the pure hatred of the occupation is among many Iraqis, or talk about a stressed American military or the possibility of needing to reinstate the draft, or even to amplify Rummy's little warnings. He can "nearly cry" while talking about how he was mistreated by the liberal press, but I don't expect him to weep from the podium about how many future lives this war will cost.

None of this would be good PR. Got to keep the public psyched, gotta talk loud and fast to cover the sound of the meat grinders.

The real war against terror will become more and more a war of information, just like Vietnam did, and you gotta hand it to Old King George for knowing this good and well, which is precisely why he bitches about and wishes he could discredit the press. The administration is at war with tiny pockets of almost infallible remote media events which are designed by master craftsmen of terror. These guys can work very effectively and almost indefinitely with a handful of nothing and cut through layers and layers of media filters like butter.

You don't have to drag charred American bodies through the streets on any massive scale to achieve the psychological aim in your target audience, which is basically creating an Iraq where Americans are less than entirely comfortable to be. Over the long term, this works remarkably well, but it can be a long and painful process to learn... just like Rummy sez.

A vigorous morale isn't just necessary in the boys on the front line, it's critical in the public opinion and and the world view. To sustain the effort none of these dynamics must fall below critical mass.

Col. Virgil Patterson, chief of the Army Mental Health Advisory Team which conducted a troop moral survey pointed out the morale issues in the Iraqi theater, with 23 suicides so far, are very significant. They point mostly to long, 'vague' missions for many deployed there, the inhospitable climate, 30 day waits for mail from home and other factors added to the normal stress.

The results of this survey were discussed on Talk of the Nation, NPR, also, coincidentally, on March 31st:

Interviewer: All war is by its very nature extremely stressful, with the situation in particular in Iraq, do you see any relation between mission and morale, in other words as the mission of American troops becomes more and more controversial, does that effect morale?

Dr. Paul Ragan (Associate professor of psychology at Vanderbilt University Medical Center): Without question. Without question. And I think we have to be very careful it's such an obvious thing, if we don't remember, it will be history repeated. And that's exactly what happened in Vietnam. Once the mission becomes ambiguous... it turns out when you place humans in a no-win situation, that induces anxiety, depression and post traumatic stress disorder, and so do a lot of our highly trained young people in Iraq, with great weapons systems... are they placed in a no-win situation? Because with lo-tech weapons and techniques they are being stymied. And you can't just suddenly turn around and mow down a whole bunch of people because someone's lobbed a homemade explosive at you and then fade it off into the marketplace. If we place them in these very untenable situations that will induce an enormous amount of distress and stress and strain that can lead to poor morale, and if you read the army's report, they didn't highlight it, but they describe very poor morale... 50-70% had low morale, and that's highly, highly concerning...

Obviously the reality of war is very different when you're in it than when you're sitting on the sidelines cheering over 'Apache killing videos' or jeering at hateful third world assholes. This is easy enough to concede even while admitting we can't imagine the order of magnitude. When people are getting hung up like coyotes on fenceposts down the street from you, it feels much different than viewing it on the internet from a quiet suburban nook.

The fact is our soldiers find themselves in a significantly different environment than most of them--and their families--expected.

Expectations. Now how do those get created? Perhaps by people who sold this conflict as a "quick and easy war"? Perhaps by politicians talking about the wonderful Walt Disney quality of Democracy and freedom and how thankful the Iraqi people would be to have us as their saviours?

How many more Americans will have to die at the hands of small mobs or in the snares of juvenile pedestrian kamikazes, and at what rate, before the futility of hanging around sets in?

...It's just another curious irony that some of you armchair war quarterbacks seem--seem mind you, thank god I can't read your minds--to take the fact that Americans are dying at the hands of small groups who are violently opposed to the occupation as all the more reason to be there. The idea of "getting in, doing the job and getting out," where the job was taking Hussein out and handing the affairs of Iraq back to the Iraqi people, seems to have taken a back seat, (in fact this whole forum being almost devoid of such topics indicates a larger climate of relative cluelessness about when, how and if this is going to happen, and whether it could or should).

And yet it also never seems to cross your minds that this is exactly what terrorists want: a target-rich audience.

Couldn't help but notice that the 'latest comment' posted at the site with the article Sinner posted, above, which I just read in full, reflects my own views on this strikingly:

From: American Kafir 4/3/2004 12:10:22 AM
It's obvious they're committing these atrocities to provoke US forces into taking the kind of action that armchair bitches like Peggy Noonan and Tammy Bruce advocate. For the terrorists, this is a pretty dull war since there aren't enough images of 8-year-old boys throwing rocks at US tanks for the entire world to see, there aren't enough bulldozers giving towns like Fallujah a facelift. The terrorists WANT a massive escalation of the conflict that'll give them many more opportunities to dismember American corpses...

If you find me "giddy" or on a "high horse" about this, I can only suggest that it's because these have been consistently my views about terrorism and enantiodromia, and they seem to be becoming clearer and clearer to more and more people. I don't take any particular pleasure in being right--in fact I will take less and less pleasure the longer, the harder and the sloggier is the road to it becoming consensus.

[JackSpratts]

gee ramona, you talk as if your words might actually make a difference to the wars’ cheerleaders. putting aside that for the moment, and the fact that i agree with you wholeheartedly, and the irony that the bushes qualify squarely as dynastic elites themselves, none of the criticisms you mention can possibly influence the supporters of this war because this is not a war that bears any relationship to one fought for the normal goals of political change or the acquisition of material. this is religious war, fought by those who believe they have been chosen by god to prepare the earth the for return of a mythological figure they believe to be their savior – and theirs alone. the one who has the power to grant them eternal life (if they obey his commands). that the iraqi’s pretend to believe this nonsense is obvious, but i’m not referring to them, i’m talking about bush and company, and the hordes of right wingers addicted to this peculiar brand of armageddon christianity they believe puts them in charge of the planet. logic does not apply, not when you think the ultimate big brother is quite literally watching your every step, and listening to your every thought (especially the thoughts), and judging you in real time while recording you for all time. this puts rooting for the home team in a whole new light. you gotta read the subtext here if you want to know what’s happening. all of the justifications for going to war were merely polite nonsense barely masking the fact that the us is now run by a theocracy appointed by gawd hisseslf (not elected) and that would much rather be teaching creationism in the schools (bush’s words) than dealing with the logical ideas that really get things done, like treating parkinson’s or even starting your car in the morning. this is not a group comfortable with nuance in the normal sense, as it applies to politics and science, but they’re well prepared and happy to spend weeks dissecting the various differences between religious dogmas that to the less obsessed seem exactly the same. you want to reach these guys? tell ‘em why slaughtering the hordes won’t get ‘em to heaven. it’s the only thing on their minds.

- js.

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
this is religious war, fought by those who believe they have been chosen by god to prepare the earth the for return of a mythological figure they believe to be their savior – and theirs alone. the one who has the power to grant them eternal life (if they obey his commands). that the iraqi’s pretend to believe this nonsense is obvious, but i’m not referring to them, i’m talking about bush and company, and the hordes of right wingers addicted to this peculiar brand of armageddon christianity they believe puts them in charge of the planet.
- js.

That's such bullshit............... Just a month ago this was a war about oil now you claim a religious war. Make up your frickin minds people

[JackSpratts]

Originally posted by AweShucks
That's such bullshit...............

no, it's not.

first of all i'm not "people," so i'm not responsible for all the views of all the people opposed to the war. there are many of them and most are valid. but yes, it is a administration waging a religious war on many fronts including here in the united states. as to the iraqi front well, like any war it needed support from many sectors. the petroleum people were more than happy to get behind it. you might even say they were ecstatic. they are connected to both bushes and to cheney. regardless of their theological leanings they all worship mammon.

- js.

[multi]

enantiodromia

[AweShucks]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
no, it's not.

first of all i'm not "people," so i'm not responsible for all the views of all the people opposed to the war. there are many of them and most are valid. but yes, it is a administration waging a religious war on many fronts including here in the united states. as to the iraqi front well, like any war it needed support from many sectors. the petroleum people were more than happy to get behind it. you might even say they were ecstatic. they are connected to both bushes and to cheney. regardless of their theological leanings they all worship mammon.

- js.

I have heard alot of theories, alot of reasons some are reasonable and some are not. Some are the truth and some are not. But your latest theory is so far out there Jack that you should consider some type of therapy

The whole problem with the Democrats right now is they have absolutely no idea and or plan how to win this election on issues. No matter what the issue they always find the negative approach that is their plan. Flip flopping on every issue no matter the position as long as the position is against Bush.

What is the truth of the Iraq war? Who cares.... tell me the Iraqi people are not better off without Saddam in power.

[span]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
gee ramona, you talk as if your words might actually make a difference to the wars’ cheerleaders. putting aside that for the moment, and the fact that i agree with you wholeheartedly, and the irony that the bushes qualify squarely as dynastic elites themselves, none of the criticisms you mention can possibly influence the supporters of this war because this is not a war that bears any relationship to one fought for the normal goals of political change or the acquisition of material. this is religious war, fought by those who believe they have been chosen by god to prepare the earth the for return of a mythological figure they believe to be their savior – and theirs alone. the one who has the power to grant them eternal life (if they obey his commands).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

fuckin' tard

[JackSpratts]

right. like religion isn't the number one priority for bush. blow your nose, there might be a peice of brain left in there. it's getting in your way.

- js.

[miss_silver]

Originally posted by AweShucks
I have heard alot of theories, alot of reasons some are reasonable and some are not. Some are the truth and some are not. But your latest theory is so far out there Jack that you should consider some type of therapy

Usually ppl who suggest someone should get therapy are the one who need it the most or truly crave to have some therapy of their own. Basically therapists are professionnals who listen to your problem(s) Threapist never find what is wrong with ya, they only help you to make you see what is wrong with ya

The whole problem with the Democrats right now is they have absolutely no idea and or plan how to win this election on issues. No matter what the issue they always find the negative approach that is their plan. Flip flopping on every issue no matter the position as long as the position is against Bush.

The whole problem is about politics views. Republican don't see eyes to eyes with the dems, each party has a different view. To a rep to say to a dem that he should get his head examined is wrong as a dem that replys the rep policies are way too right wing or or this or that is also wrong. Beside, don't they say that 2 wrongs makes a right

What is the truth of the Iraq war? Who cares.... tell me the Iraqi people are not better off without Saddam in power.

To make one point clear, first of all, bush senior should have kept quiet instead of shedding croco's tears about his son being bashed! Hey, ain't Jr the president after all. Can't he take care of himself? Jr Wanted to pick up Daddy's war, he should handle it himself, without daddy's backup or very bad emotionnal plea to try to understand his disfonctionnal son Media coverage is all about free speach is it not? Also, in my truly honnest opinion, it's the first time i've seen such a load of crap.

If I have to recap, how many iraq ppl got killed a year under Saddan regime compaired to how many iraq ppl got killed in the last year? Sure, the reply "They were for SADDAM" will pop out soon but... Trading a regime for another one, is it better? The US is far from leaving iraq to fend for itself, in fact, ain't the Bush adm are doing it for their own good (iraq) ? Think they were more interested to keep their oil monopoly intact and Saddam free imho. The point is that it's a dead end as much of the rescue of afganistan is still a dead end, meaning that, Troops will need to always be there in order to keep an uncertain peace, if they pull out, either the Taliban or the Saddam supporters might/will take over again.

It just would be nice to know that atleast (really need proofs on this) that the Bush adm are liberating those ppl for humane reasons and not for their own gain.

Also, it would be nice to remain polite and not treating ppl retard or have not them suggest to get their head probed by a therapist because they don't see the way other does.

If a decent person were to fall on the PA, he'd run away like hell Some ppl are too mean in here, feel sometimes like it's a troll fest every day of the week.

As for the religious war issue, It goes both ways either for the christians vs islam or islam vs christianity. Religions have a way to truly screw up or devide ppl on trivial issues

[span]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
right. like religion isn't the number one priority for bush. blow your nose, there might be a peice of brain left in there. it's getting in your way.

- js.

yeah i see him all the time at church...oh wait that was Clinton.

you know someone can be religious without being a book burning puritan.

[JackSpratts]

Originally posted by AweShucks
I have heard alot of theories, alot of reasons some are reasonable and some are not. Some are the truth and some are not. But your latest theory is so far out there Jack that you should consider some type of therapy

yeah well, trying to move it along here and provide some entertainment/food for thought. but seriously i know religion permeates everything bush does and it permates this war as well.

- js.

[span]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
it permates this war as well.

- js.

what would make you think that? would it be the religious nutjobs killing 3000 of us in the name of their god? just remember fruitcake, they asked for this, not us.

[JackSpratts]

Originally posted by span
what would make you think that? would it be the religious nutjobs killing 3000 of us in the name of their god? just remember fruitcake, they asked for this, not us.

oh yeah? listen span, if you have info linking iraq to 911 you'd better get your righteous ass down to dc for the hearings before they subpoena it out from under you. you're like the only guy on the planet making that claim.

- js.