Remixes or dubs?

[theknife]

What's the difference between a remix and a dub? And do artisits who's stuff gets remixed by other artisits have to give permission? The whole concept fascinates me coz I can't think of another art form where it is acceptable to alter, expand, dilute or otherwise modify the original work...I mean, imagine taking the Mona Lisa and adding some objects to the background?

[kristof47]

I don't know what is meant by dub, but I know remixes. Most of the time, those who made the original pay someone to make a remix. I believe Madonna paid a high amount for a dance remix of one of her songs by someone who's name I can't remember right now.

There is another concept, sample use. You take a piece of an old song and make a new one around it. If you use the original sample, you have to pay for it if it's commercial. For vinyls, original samples can be used. There is a good track from a couple years ago that was only released on vinyl for dj's and for a certain radio I listen too. DHT - Alone. It uses a sample from Heart - Alone. Now they are making a single from it but they had to re-sing it.

Another example is The Logical Song by Solid Solution. The original came from Supertramp. The vinyl has the original sample, the single edit has new vocals.

Here are the examples

DHT - Alone (vinyl)
Solid Solution - Logical Song (vinyl)
Solid Solution - Logical Song (single)

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Originally, DUB referred to the fundamental elements of Reggae music, as when artists would release versions of tracks simply stripped down to drums and bass. This evolved into some of the first things we'd think of now as "remixes" as the studio engineers began to play with these stripped down tracks--using lots of echo and reverb to change the rhythms around and bringing in (and out) different instruments minimalistically. Eventually, I think, the terms 'dub' and 'remix' became more or less interchangeable.

Usually remixes are done under the aegis and auspices of the artist who wrote the piece in question. As to the broader question about sampling and remixing and copyright issues, Negativeland's Intellectual Property Issues Page is still a great and fairly timely collection of articles from many different, mostly fairly radical points of view concerning such concepts. (ie: 'The Art of Noise's Futurist Manifesto,' 'Artists Against Intellectual Property,' 'Copyright Law is Wrong,' 'Musicians Against the Copyrighting of Samples,' 'Negativland's Tenets of Free Appropriation,' and much more)

[theknife]

Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Originally, DUB referred to the fundamental elements of Reggae music, as when artists would release versions of tracks simply stripped down to drums and bass. This evolved into some of the first things we'd think of now as "remixes" as the studio engineers began to play with these stripped down tracks--using lots of echo and reverb to change the rhythms around and bringing in (and out) different instruments minimalistically. Eventually, I think, the terms 'dub' and 'remix' became more or less interchangeable.

Usually remixes are done under the aegis and auspices of the artist who wrote the piece in question. As to the broader question about sampling and remixing and copyright issues, Negativeland's Intellectual Property Issues Page is still a great and fairly timely collection of articles from many different, mostly fairly radical points of view concerning such concepts. (ie: 'The Art of Noise's Futurist Manifesto,' 'Artists Against Intellectual Property,' 'Copyright Law is Wrong,' 'Musicians Against the Copyrighting of Samples,' 'Negativland's Tenets of Free Appropriation,' and much more)

that clarifies it nicely - thanks!

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by theknife
What's the difference between a remix and a dub? And do artisits who's stuff gets remixed by other artisits have to give permission? The whole concept fascinates me coz I can't think of another art form where it is acceptable to alter, expand, dilute or otherwise modify the original work...I mean, imagine taking the Mona Lisa and adding some objects to the background?

A damn good question and one I've always wanted to answer from the perspective of the 70's , 80's ideas of what it meant.

Back then - a remix meant getting the master tapes back out and literally *re-mixing* the track/album from the original multi-track master tapes so as to ideally give a better presentation of the performance. For example to reduce background noise. An example that comes to mind was the original release of Genesis's Lamb Lies down on Broadway which had terrible 'hum' on several tracks.

Now it has been reduced to what I see a wimpish way of copying other peoples work with some input of one's own.

Anyone care to comment ?


Graham

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Originally, DUB referred to the fundamental elements of Reggae music, as when artists would release versions of tracks simply stripped down to drums and bass. This evolved into some of the first things we'd think of now as "remixes" as the studio engineers began to play with these stripped down tracks--using lots of echo and reverb to change the rhythms around and bringing in (and out) different instruments minimalistically. Eventually, I think, the terms 'dub' and 'remix' became more or less interchangeable.

Thanks for your perspective.

My own experience of 'dubs' relates to 'over-dubbing' - an old traditional term - which meant the addition of new material to an original recording.

Early tape recorders allowed 'overdubbing' by not erasing the original material. This obviously required some skill.

Hard to explain if you aren't familiar with the limitations of the equipment of the time.

Modern kit makes it so much simpler.


Graham

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Not sure the term "dub" ever actually referred to the process of overdubbing (ie: disengaging the erase head on old tape decks, which usually degenerated the underlying sound quite a bit, and irreversibly changed the recording) I always thought the evolution of the term came more from "dub" in the sense of "making a copy." Not sure about international usage, but American musicians often will say "dub me off a copy," and we refer to dual cassette decks as "dubbing decks."

Anyway, splitting hairs really.

Interesting tidbit about The Lamb Lies Down, always one of my favourite albums. (I suppose any time you let Eno into the studio, something is bound to start humming)



As to your comment about remixing being wimpish, all I can say is I'm generally not a huge fan of the remix, unless they are exceptional, and some few are. In the main, I don't understand the glamour of the whole Dj-ing remixing beat-merging thing really. There's enough NEW MUSIC waiting to be made to last for all eternity without needing to re-hash, re-vamp and sub-mix what's been done.

Splitting hairs again.

[theknife]

Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone



Interesting tidbit about The Lamb Lies Down, always one of my favourite albums. (I suppose any time you let Eno into the studio, something is bound to start humming)

Ah, The Lamb...anybody who grew up with it understands, and you could never explain it to anyone who didn't. Suffice to say, it is yet another piece of the amazing mosaic that is Peter Gabriel.

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
Not sure the term "dub" ever actually referred to the process of overdubbing (ie: disengaging the erase head on old tape decks, which usually degenerated the underlying sound quite a bit, and irreversibly changed the recording)

Sure it is - hence -'overdub' as opposed to 'dub'. Early tape machines were quite limited - not like modern digital recording. Still didn't stop some excellent recordings


I always thought the evolution of the term came more from "dub" in the sense of "making a copy." Not sure about international usage, but American musicians often will say "dub me off a copy," and we refer to dual cassette decks as "dubbing decks."

Yeah a straight dub is indeed a copy. Normally for home reference.

Anyway, splitting hairs really.

No problem.

Interesting tidbit about The Lamb Lies Down, always one of my favourite albums. (I suppose any time you let Eno into the studio, something is bound to start humming)



As to your comment about remixing being wimpish, all I can say is I'm generally not a huge fan of the remix, unless they are exceptional, and some few are. In the main, I don't understand the glamour of the whole Dj-ing remixing beat-merging thing really. There's enough NEW MUSIC waiting to be made to last for all eternity without needing to re-hash, re-vamp and sub-mix what's been done.

Quite !



Splitting hairs again.

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by theknife


Ah, The Lamb...anybody who grew up with it understands, and you could never explain it to anyone who didn't. Suffice to say, it is yet another piece of the amazing mosaic that is Peter Gabriel.

Too right !

Peter Gabriels's work is a godsend to the music community.

I'm hard pressed to 'quote' any of his best work. So much of it is great.

Just as a thought - I reckoned his vid for 'Digging in the Dirt' was pretty powerful. A little scary too perhaps ?

Graham

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by theknife


Ah, The Lamb...anybody who grew up with it understands, and you could never explain it to anyone who didn't. Suffice to say, it is yet another piece of the amazing mosaic that is Peter Gabriel.

Too right !

Peter Gabriels's work is a godsend to the music community.

I'm hard pressed to 'quote' any of his best work. So much of it is great.

Just as a thought - I reckoned his vid for 'Digging in the Dirt' was pretty powerful. A little scary too perhaps ?

Graham

[Ramona_A_Stone]

I'll take Passion for 800, Alex.

Also Ovo, which isn't so much like listening to music, as it is a complete spiritual rebirth. I mean, Richie Havens and Elizabeth Fraser for God's sake.


And here, for your consideration, is a list of Peter gabriel "strays" I picked up from Napster: (along with about 30 or so remixes, these made a three CD set.)

Summertime - (George Gershwin - The Glory of Gershwin Compilation)

Strawberry Fields Forever - (Lennon and Mcartney - All This And WWII soundtrack)

That'll Do (Randy Newman - Babe: Pig in the City soundtrack)

The Fisherman's Song - (Gabriel - Mermaid soundtrack)

Suzanne - (Leonard Cohen - Tower of Song - L.C. tribute album)

In The Sun - (Joseph Aurthur - Diana, Princess of Wales tribute album)

Get Up, Stand Up - (Bob Marley cover - origin unknown)

Lovetown - (Philadelphia soundtrack)

Walk Through The Fire - (Against All Odds soundtrack)

Party Man - (Gabriel and Tori Amos - Virtuousity soundtrack)

Out Out - (Gremlins soundtrack)

Ga Ga (Gabriel - Instrumental mix of "I Go Swimming")

Across The River (Gabriel - Music and Rhythm Compilation - (fantastic album in its own right))

Soft Dog (Gabriel B side)

[theknife]

Well, the metaphor that is Digging In The Dirt is too obvious to miss....and right on the money if you've ever been through any kind of agonizing personal reappraisal (and who hasn't?)...

...but Peter Gabriel defies description...he's a force of nature...and his live performances are absolutely without equal. I'd really love to know when his new cd is coming out - I've been hearing rumors for the last year...

[shoes58]

Originally posted by pasoundman


Too right !

Peter Gabriels's work is a godsend to the music community.

I hae been subjected (on radio) to an acoustic cover version of "In Your Eyes" by someone who I cannot recall (thankfully! ) that is horrible. WXRT collectively and the "artist" individually should be slapped with trouts until their eyes cross.
On the subject of remixes, is anyone but me pissed at ZZ Top remixing their classics like "La Grange", etc., so the drums are "fatter" with more post-EQ? (echo)

[pasoundman]

Originally posted by shoes58


I hae been subjected (on radio) to an acoustic cover version of "In Your Eyes" by someone who I cannot recall (thankfully! ) that is horrible. WXRT collectively and the "artist" individually should be slapped with trouts until their eyes cross.

How dare they do that !


On the subject of remixes, is anyone but me pissed at ZZ Top remixing their classics like "La Grange", etc., so the drums are "fatter" with more post-EQ? (echo)

No opinion on that as I'm not familiar. For comparison the remix of the Doobies Long Train Running was no improvement on the original IMHO.