firewalls and spyware and does symantec have secret alliances with spyware vendors - P2P-Zone

schmooky007 · 09-05-01, 07:57 PM

the grc.com reply

it addresses the full issue that was once claimed that the zonealarm firewall and its truevector monitoring system was some sort of a clever spyware, and it turns out (according to to grc) that it isn't

the zonealarm privacy concern (first part) is steve gibson's reply, the rest is by the grc.com staff

anyway here's the email:

-----

----- ZoneAlarm Privacy Concerns (start) -----

Is there such a thing as a free lunch?

Many people have been concerned that ZoneAlarm is free, and have wondered whether it might not, itself, be very cleverly marketed advanced spyware. Then, on January 11th, gasoline was thrown on the fires of these concerns when ZoneLabs announced that their "TrueVector" technology had been licensed to Media Metrix, a company that provides "consumer profiling" services to major Internet media users. This caused an uproar as people wondered whether the "TrueVector" technology that also forms the foundation of ZoneAlarm might not be spying on them. In other words, "Who's watching the watchers?"!!

Since these are valid questions, which also initially concerned me greatly, I'll tell you what I know and now believe:

I'm absolutely certain that the ZoneLabs guys are good guys. ZoneAlarm is the first application of their TrueVector technology. In the future they will probably be offering a non-free "pro" version which will offer more advanced features for people wanting detailed event logs, operation on NAT machines, more "granular" control over the ZA firewall, and so forth. But their main focus is upon the licensing of their underlying TrueVector technology (as they have with Media Metrix) and also upon the development of commercial "corporate scale" products.

I've read their TrueVector US patent cover-to-cover, so I know how much more their technology can do. In the future they will be
offering a suite of powerful solutions to the corporate Internet user who needs to maintain security controls over their entire
enterprise's operation.

So I ask you: How better to nail down every last nuance of their core technology's behavior and operation than to give it ultra-high
volume exposure in the form of a technologically advanced free firewall for the masses? It is what I would do, and what I WILL do in the future, with my own work.

What about the evil Media Metrix?

Educate yourself as I did: Go take a look at the Media Metrix website http://www.mediametrix.com.

What you'll see is that Media Metrix is to web surfing as the Nielsen rating system is to television viewing. Just as a "Nielsen Family" gets paid to have a special "set top box" continually monitoring their viewing habits, Media Metrix pays 50,000 web users to have special monitoring software installed in their computers so that their surfing habits and behavior can be monitored. The technology Media Metrix had been using was limited and troublesome. So, they turned to ZoneLabs' TrueVector technology to provide a mature solution for their knowingly monitored user's needs.

I see nothing wrong, nor the least bit evil or underhanded, in Media Metrix's use of the superior TrueVector technology, nor anything wrong with ZoneLabs making their core technology available to an above-board company like Media Metrix. It is specifically because of the financial support of the Media Metrix license that ZoneLabs can afford to make ZoneAlarm free to all of us, and specifically because of the data collected by Media Metrix (with the FULL KNOWLEDGE AND PAID PERMISSION of their sample user-base) that so many other free, advertiser-supported services are available to all of us on the web.

----- ZoneAlarm Privacy Concerns (end) -----

Also, Steve knows the folks at Zone Labs *REALLY* well. Their president, Gregor Freund has become a good personal friend. He
and Steve have talked about these issues and past accusations many times. We are absolutely convinced that he feels every bit as strongly as we do about privacy, and he also knows that we would feel UTTERLY BETRAYED and that we would rain down every
last available ounce of UNGODLY WRATH upon them if we were EVER to learn that they were spying. We would make it my sole
mission in life to end their existence upon this planet -- and he knows that because Steve has said it!!

There is just NO CHANCE that they are spying ... and they don't need to be! We have inspected their code, we have read their
patent ... and the reason they are giving away their firewall is simple, brilliant, business strategy. Other firewall vendors are majorly pissed off with Zone Labs for totally screwing up the personal firewall "business model". Some are being forced -- against their will -- to release free firewalls just to maintain market share.

Zone Labs has -- overnight -- entered the firewall business late in the game and virtually taken it over, overnight. We know what
not-yet-public deals Gregor is working on ... and this will turn out to be every bit as "correct" a strategy as was John McAfee's
decision to give away his Virus Scanner more than a decade ago.

(Note that John McAfee no longer works. He lives in a lovely home that he built amid the tall trees of the Santa Cruz mountains ... and he has deep investments in many technology firms ... having become a one-man Venture Capital firm. We would say that "giving it away" can work quite well!

You are free to re-post this note into any forum, or use it in any way that you choose. ZoneAlarm is the best firewall on the planet -- we have no financial or other relationship or reason for saying so, and our opinions are NOT for sale -- and it would be a shame for people to be frightened away from it just because it's free.

For example ... install THE NOT FREE Symantec firewall and, before running the Live Update, you will discover two
PRE-BUILT-IN files "adserv.*" and "tsadbot.*" which are designed to PERMIT adware/spyware to pass through the firewall
undetected by their users. And then ask yourself what you're getting for your money!

So, we feel there is no cause for concern.

-----

i guess its time to call it quits with the conspiracy theories

greedy_lars · 10-05-01, 02:39 PM

not even dude, their interesting. just to me, its kinda a moot point, i have thought for a long time norton makes virsus and gets em out, what better way to bolster business. and even if they dont, norton products have caused more trouble to computers than viruses could dream of, cause norton anti-computer er virus suuuuuuuuuuuuuuks, as does all those "well protect ya and fix all yer troubles automatically and painlessly" products, their for people who dont know how to fix their computer when it goes down. burn yer chit on cds, is the best backup program in da world.......short of raid arrays, but i cant afford those, and dun need it anyway..

Malk-a-mite · 10-05-01, 05:59 PM

One problem is Gibson himself...

Used to write some amazing code (spinrite) but of late hasn't pulled much out of his magic hat.

Last I checked he was working on "nano-packets"...

I'm personally taking everything I here from Gibson with a grain of salf these days.

09-05-01, 07:57 PM	#1
schmooky007 hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 1,708	firewalls and spyware the grc.com reply it addresses the full issue that was once claimed that the zonealarm firewall and its truevector monitoring system was some sort of a clever spyware, and it turns out (according to to grc) that it isn't the zonealarm privacy concern (first part) is steve gibson's reply, the rest is by the grc.com staff anyway here's the email: ----- ----- ZoneAlarm Privacy Concerns (start) ----- Is there such a thing as a free lunch? Many people have been concerned that ZoneAlarm is free, and have wondered whether it might not, itself, be very cleverly marketed advanced spyware. Then, on January 11th, gasoline was thrown on the fires of these concerns when ZoneLabs announced that their "TrueVector" technology had been licensed to Media Metrix, a company that provides "consumer profiling" services to major Internet media users. This caused an uproar as people wondered whether the "TrueVector" technology that also forms the foundation of ZoneAlarm might not be spying on them. In other words, "Who's watching the watchers?"!! Since these are valid questions, which also initially concerned me greatly, I'll tell you what I know and now believe: I'm absolutely certain that the ZoneLabs guys are good guys. ZoneAlarm is the first application of their TrueVector technology. In the future they will probably be offering a non-free "pro" version which will offer more advanced features for people wanting detailed event logs, operation on NAT machines, more "granular" control over the ZA firewall, and so forth. But their main focus is upon the licensing of their underlying TrueVector technology (as they have with Media Metrix) and also upon the development of commercial "corporate scale" products. I've read their TrueVector US patent cover-to-cover, so I know how much more their technology can do. In the future they will be offering a suite of powerful solutions to the corporate Internet user who needs to maintain security controls over their entire enterprise's operation. So I ask you: How better to nail down every last nuance of their core technology's behavior and operation than to give it ultra-high volume exposure in the form of a technologically advanced free firewall for the masses? It is what I would do, and what I WILL do in the future, with my own work. What about the evil Media Metrix? Educate yourself as I did: Go take a look at the Media Metrix website http://www.mediametrix.com. What you'll see is that Media Metrix is to web surfing as the Nielsen rating system is to television viewing. Just as a "Nielsen Family" gets paid to have a special "set top box" continually monitoring their viewing habits, Media Metrix pays 50,000 web users to have special monitoring software installed in their computers so that their surfing habits and behavior can be monitored. The technology Media Metrix had been using was limited and troublesome. So, they turned to ZoneLabs' TrueVector technology to provide a mature solution for their knowingly monitored user's needs. I see nothing wrong, nor the least bit evil or underhanded, in Media Metrix's use of the superior TrueVector technology, nor anything wrong with ZoneLabs making their core technology available to an above-board company like Media Metrix. It is specifically because of the financial support of the Media Metrix license that ZoneLabs can afford to make ZoneAlarm free to all of us, and specifically because of the data collected by Media Metrix (with the FULL KNOWLEDGE AND PAID PERMISSION of their sample user-base) that so many other free, advertiser-supported services are available to all of us on the web. ----- ZoneAlarm Privacy Concerns (end) ----- Also, Steve knows the folks at Zone Labs REALLY well. Their president, Gregor Freund has become a good personal friend. He and Steve have talked about these issues and past accusations many times. We are absolutely convinced that he feels every bit as strongly as we do about privacy, and he also knows that we would feel UTTERLY BETRAYED and that we would rain down every last available ounce of UNGODLY WRATH upon them if we were EVER to learn that they were spying. We would make it my sole mission in life to end their existence upon this planet -- and he knows that because Steve has said it!! There is just NO CHANCE that they are spying ... and they don't need to be! We have inspected their code, we have read their patent ... and the reason they are giving away their firewall is simple, brilliant, business strategy. Other firewall vendors are majorly pissed off with Zone Labs for totally screwing up the personal firewall "business model". Some are being forced -- against their will -- to release free firewalls just to maintain market share. Zone Labs has -- overnight -- entered the firewall business late in the game and virtually taken it over, overnight. We know what not-yet-public deals Gregor is working on ... and this will turn out to be every bit as "correct" a strategy as was John McAfee's decision to give away his Virus Scanner more than a decade ago. (Note that John McAfee no longer works. He lives in a lovely home that he built amid the tall trees of the Santa Cruz mountains ... and he has deep investments in many technology firms ... having become a one-man Venture Capital firm. We would say that "giving it away" can work quite well! You are free to re-post this note into any forum, or use it in any way that you choose. ZoneAlarm is the best firewall on the planet -- we have no financial or other relationship or reason for saying so, and our opinions are NOT for sale -- and it would be a shame for people to be frightened away from it just because it's free. For example ... install THE NOT FREE Symantec firewall and, before running the Live Update, you will discover two PRE-BUILT-IN files "adserv." and "tsadbot." which are designed to PERMIT adware/spyware to pass through the firewall undetected by their users. And then ask yourself what you're getting for your money! So, we feel there is no cause for concern. ----- i guess its time to call it quits with the conspiracy theories Last edited by schmooky007 : 09-05-01 at 09:59 PM.

10-05-01, 05:59 PM	#3
Malk-a-mite Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 7	One problem is Gibson himself... Used to write some amazing code (spinrite) but of late hasn't pulled much out of his magic hat. Last I checked he was working on "nano-packets"... I'm personally taking everything I here from Gibson with a grain of salf these days. __________________ Malk-a-mite =================== Insert clever .sig file here ===================

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10-05-01, 02:39 PM	#2
greedy_lars everything you do Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: wlll come back around to you Posts: 3,982	not even dude, their interesting. just to me, its kinda a moot point, i have thought for a long time norton makes virsus and gets em out, what better way to bolster business. and even if they dont, norton products have caused more trouble to computers than viruses could dream of, cause norton anti-computer er virus suuuuuuuuuuuuuuks, as does all those "well protect ya and fix all yer troubles automatically and painlessly" products, their for people who dont know how to fix their computer when it goes down. burn yer chit on cds, is the best backup program in da world.......short of raid arrays, but i cant afford those, and dun need it anyway..