P2P Anonymity

[theknife]

ok, in light of recent news, it occurs to me that a privacy-loving file trader might wanna attempt to maintain a bit of anonymity whilst trading...or is this not possible?

perhaps someone could enlighten me a little about anonymous proxies...if someone were to plug IE in thru one, does it follow that, when using a Fast Track client, for instance, that the p2p traffic is also going thru the proxy server?

[Millencolin]

not sure, but if you have a firewall up, can't you totally hide your IP... maybe that would help with that???

[TankGirl]

Most anonymous proxies are designed to support web surfing only. In other words they understand the HTTP protocol but not the special protocols used by the various p2p clients. Even such traditional file transfer protocols as FTP are usually not supported.

Apart from the protocol issue, the main reason for the lack of privacy services for p2p users is bandwidth. The bandwidth demands in p2p trading are much, much higher than in surfing. If somebody was kind enough to offer a working free proxy service for some popular p2p application, even a T1 line would be on its knees in no time. Public proxies are simply not the way to solve the p2p privacy problem. Proxying itself as a technology can be utilized though as long as the resources come from the p2p community itself. Freenet uses one kind of proxying to provide privacy to its members but there is a computational cost to it, making Freenet less effective than the mainstream p2p applications.

- tg

[JackSpratts]

if you want anonymity you need to mask your ip address. there is a way to do so. it requires getting a remote pc under an assumed name with an assumed account that can in no way be traced to back you. it works with any p2p. the pc is then operated remotely and when it gets burned you walk away from it forever.

the 2nd way is to use a browser-based gnutella client thru an anonymizer. but not the cloak because they retain data and will give up your name if subpoenaed. you'll need to find an anonymising application that operates differently. open source versions exist.

doing this will go a long way towards reducing your chances of getting caught up in the dragnet if this poor excuse for a law is upheld. it also means that your days of download speeds surpassing dialup will be a wistful memory.

a third way is to use freenet. good luck with that one. see above.

the only way this will work in any real sense is to make sure the law supports file trading. at present anything less is unworkable.

call your legislator.

- js.

[TankGirl]

Originally posted by JackSpratts
the only way this will work in any real sense is to make sure the law supports file trading. at present anything less is unworkable.

call your legislator.

Ditto.

Making all private, non-commercial p2p explicitely legal is the only sensible way to solve the legality issue. Call it fair use if you wish - the name does not matter as long as private p2p remains legal, free, uncensored, uncontrolled. That will stop the shameful harassment of private citizens and also give a clear new rule for the businesses to reorganize their business models to the post-Napster world.

- tg

[spstn]

Why not to start building value and legality into the P2P networks ?

A few months ago I burned my left forearm doing acrobatics while cooking.
I was alone and the pain was so acute that I couldn't think clearly.
I was using Soulseek at that moment and I remember thinking why the friggin' program couldn't have an emergency info section.
I had a cabinet full of medications but I didn't have the slightest idea what to use because the pain had no room for reasoning.

I needed clear and precise info fast, with no room for second guessing.

I was fortunate, I walked 30 yards to the firefighter station, and they treated me in their state of the art mobile rescue unit.

Upon returning and reading the flyer given to me, I realised that I had all the elements needed to take care of the situation already in the medicine cabinet.

The only element missing was information=knowledge.

This is only an example, but there a large number of uses that I don't wanna get into here, that could give P2P legitimacy beyond copyright limitations.

With each user allocating a few megs to that purpose the possibilities are almost limitless.

Furthermore, if you go to a judge and show him bonafide legal value the fight wouldn't be so one sided, and P2P programs would have at least a leg to stand on.

And if someone think I'm peddling legality just to smuggle piracy into the mix, let me assure you, while looking at the scar in my left arm, that it is the other way around.

[theknife]

well, that answers that...thanks, TG - I knew there were technical limitations, but I wasn't clear on exactly what they were...

...and when it gets burned you walk away from it forever.

hmmm...think I saw Robert DiNiro do that in Heat...although it might have been a girl, not a pc

and while the quest for p2p legitimacy is always a prime consideration, one can't help but wonder exactly what constitutes "acrobatics while cooking"?

[pod]

De Niro/Neil: Don't get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner.

One of my favourite movies of all time, and yeah, it was a girl

FreeNet is not computationally intensive. The mathematics are pretty simple. It's the encryption stuff that is the biggest factor, and you won't be moving enough data (ie gigs/second) for it to matter much.

If you remove encryption from FreeNet you still maintain anonymity; encryption is just a layer to provide some plausible deniability cover; you have no way of knowing what's zipping around in those packets.

[JackSpratts]

here's an in depth analysis of freenet, p2ps and the future of copyrights. it's really pretty interesting.

Originally posted by spstn
Why not to start building value and legality into the P2P networks ?

spstn that's an excellent idea. it never would've occurred to me but it could be a lifesaver if you can make sure the info is authentic.

it's good for p2ps and for people in a tight spot and we'll be needing more like it from now on.

- js.

[spstn]

"Acrobatics" means flipping in the air a very heavy and HOT spanish "tortilla", and have it landing in your forearm instead of the frying pan from where it "departed"

And related to the info quality, no problem: You just distribute federal, state and city certified information, 24/7 and while the government sleeps and stays offline part of the day, the network never sleeps.

But I was thinking more in terms of education.

With a message window like in Soulseek you can communicate, test, tutor, and so forth and so on, in real time.
With the ability to transfer any type of file, and instant communication, stretching from "around the world" to "just your neighborhood" the possibilities education wise are mind boggling.

I know all this may sound a little bit off the wall for some, but in my case, I'm learning and tutoring through Soulseek, and it works.

No judge in the planet would shut down a network that helps to educate real people if you can SHOW her/him it really works.

I DO really believe that P2P must be more than what it is today, and can be used to educate, amongst other uses, but if in the process of getting there, provides a soft landing to legalize file swapping, well, tough luck.

Ha!

[multi]

trust info from a p2p?????
when there is 10 fakes for every real file..
(have had nearly a G of fakes this month on dial up)
you would likley end up with a recipe for an euthenasia treatment....while looking for a burn remedy..and get a virus to boot
or something like..

apply several drops of hydrocloric acid to burn area and cover with tinfoil...
ignore tingling sensation for 5 mins
repeat..

grgr...

[spstn]

The fact remains that no amount of half baked jokes will do anything towards a constructive approach to build up legality and usability beyond stealing music, porn and movies in independent p2p networks.

Furthermore, a regressive attitude is the best hope for the riaa (note the small caps) to succeed in the long run, with hordes of bright people keeping and re-distributing Gs upon Gs of fakes from their WINDOWS folders, and what makes Kazaa the cesspool that it is today.

I haven't found one fake in Soulseek yet, but then Britney Spears is not the most popular content there either.

And the hard fact remains that some (count me in) have already started pushing the envelope beyond p2p traditional use, but of course are a minority when compared with the hordes feeding the "fakes" machine.

So I'll let up to those with a common sense approach to decide which way will help to preserve p2p, and which one will hasten its demise.

Just by looking at this very same thread, it should be easy to understand why do we desperately need to move beyond than where we are at today.

[SA_Dave]

Originally posted by spstn
With the ability to transfer any type of file, and instant communication, stretching from "around the world" to "just your neighborhood" the possibilities education wise are mind boggling.

...I DO really believe that P2P must be more than what it is today, and can be used to educate, amongst other uses, but if in the process of getting there, provides a soft landing to legalize file swapping, well, tough luck.

I agree completely!!

Cybereducation would be phenomenal in a p2p environment! Other legitimate uses for p2p include the ability to publish research papers without regard for censorship or geographical restrictions; eg. security research which circumvents access control mechanisms, thus violating the DMCA; distribution of OSS, distributed hosting of online games, telemedicine, bypassing censorship protections such as the firewall which "protects" China from democratic ideas, other collaboration projects etc.

Maybe if you're good tg will let you into "Area 25" and we can discuss such things further... Just be wary of her "mind-meld" technique!

[TankGirl]

Originally posted by spstn
With the ability to transfer any type of file, and instant communication, stretching from "around the world" to "just your neighborhood" the possibilities education wise are mind boggling.

Indeed so. Music and movies have been strong catalysts to the evolution of the p2p technology but the scope of p2p in itself is much wider. Actually it is not hard at all to find great 'non-infringing' uses for p2p - it's just the artificial controversy created by the RIAA & the MPAA that has obscured the big picture and created the false impression that p2p is all about 'piracy'. It is not, and as new p2p applications to new target groups keep popping up, the truth will gradually become clear to everybody.

Take for example the corporate world. Ray Ozzie's (creator of Lotus Notes) Groove started serious development of corporate-targeted p2p before Shawn Fanning had even conceived the idea of Napster. The company has presently over 280 employees and its customers include big companies like Bertelsmann, Cap Gemini, Pfizer and Unilever. Recently Microsoft invested 51 million US$ into the company to acquire a strategic partnership. With proper security infrastructure p2p makes an excellent workgroup platform, and as such can be applied to almost any co-operative group activity which can be handled online.

I haven't heard the copyright nazis harassing Groove even if one can use their well-protected environment also for music and movie filesharing. They won't dare to do it as that would bring other corporate lawyers against them. Obviously they consider their position still strong enough to harass private p2p users and violate their privacy but let's see how long they can continue their ugly game of bullying...

- tg

[ONEMANBANNED]

Sorry, but I never read the whole thread, I think that if you eat up a whack of bandwith from your service provider then it is probably obvious as to what you are up to?

[JackSpratts]

Originally posted by TankGirl
I haven't heard the copyright nazis harassing Groove even if one can use their well-protected environment also for music and movie filesharing.

- tg

and you never will. for a high-profile p2p groove operates under the radar like it's invisible. i've had a copy on my system since it was first released to the public, i can't recall even a whiff of animosity from copyright holders and i've never known why. it's the same with aim, msn, icq etc. all work great for swapping anything. course the IMs don't allow deep searches but they do enable easy transferring of coyrghted material. indeed, if p2ps vanished today, we'd all be using them tomorrow.

let me tell you, groove works just fine for swapping songs and everyone who has it knows it.

a lot of it is plain old class warfare. executives use groove so it's off the list. workers use kazaa and it's open season.

- js.