The Illegal Immigration thing

[floydian slip]

I dont mind mexican people. I also understand why most want to be here. But there are always some agitators like the Aztlan movement, they want to take over the SW U.S.

When I see the people protesting for rights and waving a Mexican flag it is kind of Oxy-moronic eh? If your here and want to have the rights of a US citizen then why are they flying the flag of the country they just left?

The border can be patroled and or closed very easily if they wanted it to be. The Minuteman Project prooved that. Yet our govt does nothing to stop it, and the people that try to stop it are called vigilantes by our President. WTF?

[RoBoBoy]

What makes you think the government wants to stop the border crossings?

[albed]

Originally Posted by floydian slip

The border can be patroled and or closed very easily if they wanted it to be. ... Yet our govt does nothing to stop it,

Originally Posted by RoBoBoy

What makes you think the government wants to stop the border crossings?

GENIUS.






It's cheap labor for the businesspeople who contribute the money that gets both Republicans and Democrats elected.

Now that elections are coming you see some pretensions of stopping illegal immigration but it's practically guaranteed to be worthless gestures.

I've thought before of brushing up on my spanish and dying my hair black to get one of those jobs without all the fucking taxes and deductions for everyone and everything. It's become a major pain for employees as well as employers; all the fucking lawyers and bureaucrats involved in everything.

[miss_silver]

Those peeps have read too much Gary Jennings IMO

Aztlan is as mythical as Atlantis or the island of Mû. We've heard about them but never found them. According to their Aztec legend, before Spain invaded, it was said that the Aztec population came from the Island? of Aztlan but left to find new territory. It was said that they would know where to stop when they would see an eagle perched on a cactus holding in it's claw a serpent, Tenochtitlan (Mexico City). They then settled on the island and started to flurish as a civilisation by conquerring neighboring tribes. Deal was, you will be protected and be part of the Aztec nation as long as you pay a yearly tribute to them, fail to comply, it's off to the slave market. No wonder Cortez had little trouble conquerring them, he promised the surrounding tribes freedom if they helped him and his conquistador to subdo the hated Aztecs.

Those students are deluding themselves if they think they can lay claim on Aztlan, First, it would need to be found and second, I'm sure that the Comanche, Hopi, Apache, Shoshone would beg to differ that it's not Aztec/Mexican land and never was.

I think Tom Friedman said it best - We need a very tall wall with a very wide gate.

[theknife]

it's pretty amazing, actually - the birth of a political movement virtually overnight. from the NYT:

Immigration Advocates Rally Across U.S

By MARIA NEWMAN
Published: April 10, 2006

Crowds of immigrants and their supporters predicted to total in the hundreds of thousands marched today in more than 100 cities throughout the country, casting off the old fears of their illegal status to assert that they have a right to a humane life in this country.

Thousands took part in a large immigration march and rally in Atlanta, Ga., today. More Photos >

The marches were taking place in big cities like Washington, New York City, Houston, Los Angeles, Phoenix and Atlanta, and in smaller communities like Hyde Park, N.Y., Garden City, Kan., and Belle Glade, Fla. Some of the marchers invoked the tactics and slogans of the civil rights era, and others were trying out a new voice for an emerging constituency that in the very recent past has hidden from authority because of their lack of papers, afraid to speak up, willing to work for wages that American citizens will not accept.

In Madison, Wis., a rally drew 25,000, organizers said. The police, who estimated the crowd to be closer to 10,000, nevertheless said it was one of the largest rallies they have seen in 10 years there.

the GOP was hoping to create a wedge issue with immigration...instead they succeeded in mobilizing and unifying millions of voters against them.

obviously the illegals are a critical part of the economy - i can see that in my own neighborhood. i think they should apply the Cuba rule - seal the borders, but if you're already here or can make it in, you can stay.

[albed]

Just because you haven't noticed it before doesn't mean it's just been born knife.


Note how they're so open about their intentions to fraudulently vote. I guess the unwillingness of the government to enforce immigration law has bred complete contempt for any law. What wonderful citizens they'll make.

[Mazer]

My mom passed this along to me. I don't know who wrote it.

Recently, large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests. Let's say I break into you house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the jobs you don't like to do. I'm hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."

According to the protesters:

You are required to let me stay in your house
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are required to educate my kids
You are required to provide other benefits to me and to my family

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be here.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard working and honest person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And what a deal it is for me!!

I live in your house, contributing nothing, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America!

[ittybitty]

Originally Posted by Mazer

My mom passed this along to me. I don't know who wrote it.

so u feel ok w/other people taking over yr country and home?

[theknife]

lot's of bitching and silly analogys in this thread - any solutions?

ok, here's mine:

1) seal the borders, north and south (as we should have done on 9/11 or before). use 150,000 troops or so from, oh, i don't know - iraq, or some other place where they are currently misdeployed.

2) after the borders are sealed, anybody that's in gets to stay. period. if you made it, you lucked out, you're in, but you're gonna be the last wave.

3) after the general amnesty, officers, owners, managers, and board members of companys caught employing illegals are absolutely criminally liable. period.

4) the minor children of amnesty recipients are eligible for free education and healthcare, the adults are not. the adults made the decisions to come for menial jobs and that's what they get. their kids get to grow up educated and healthy and go on to become the next generation's good citizens, as has been the case with every generation of immigrants before them.

let the flames begin

[albed]

We could just skip the analogies and go straight to the facts:

Illegal aliens are depressing wages.

Illegal aliens are burdening the welfare system.

Illegal aliens are burdening certain school systems.

Illegal aliens are burdening the justice system. (One murdered two americans in my area.)

Illegal aliens are burdening hospitals in certain areas.

Illegal aliens are degrading quality of life in many communities.



Solution: eliminate the factors that motivate them to come and stay illegally in the U.S.; unlawful employment opportunities, various welfare benefits, automatic citizenship for children born here that give them a legal claim to stay and scumbag politicians that subvert the laws of the United States for their own political gain.

[Mazer]

No flames knife, you're on the right track but you're missing the point.

Citizen immigrants are the primary source of American patriotism because they are Americans by choice and they pass that enthusiasm on to their children. The problem isn't that people are sneaking into America, it's the attitude they're bringing with them. Illegal immigrants don't come here for citizenship, they don't necessarily want to be put on a path towards citizenship and giving them amnesty does nothing to make them want to assimilate. All they really want is to be able to stay here where the money is, so to them amnesty is just a form of political asylum or sanctuary. I have a big problem with that attitude and so do most Americans.

Illegals represent a threat to our sovereignty on a fundamental level. We're a nation of laws and we're united because we abide by those laws. Our law states that only citizens can stay here permanently and only citizens can vote, and illegals seek to break both those laws. If we allow that then are we still a nation of laws? No, not really. We're importing a new kind of racism, we're giving rise to a group of people to whom citizenship means nothing and yet they feel entitled to all the benefits citizenship grants. They call themselves La Raza, they feel they transcend all borders, and when they run afoul of the law they head down south where law enforcement can't reach them. They have about as much respect for our sovereignty as drug smugglers and terrorist groups.

So here's my take on your plan: Seal the borders? Absolutely. Anybody who is already here gets to stay? Change that to "anybody who is already here must stay" and I'd agree; the border should be sealed in both directions to prevent fugitives from escaping. Prosecute employers of illegal immigrants? Yes. Free health care and education for minor children of illegals? Only if they are taught in English (absolutely no bilingual classes) and they learn all about American history; just because they didn't choose to come here doesn't mean they shouldn't have to assimilate into our culture. These four things are inadequate though. Like albed says we need to remove the incentives for illegal immigration.

[vernarial]

Here is a funny little e-mail I got a few years ago. It was done in jest, but also makes some good points.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love America

I come for visit, get treated regal,
So I stay, who care I illegal?
I cross border, poor and broke,
Take bus, see employment folk.

Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need to see welfare.
Welfare say "you come no more,
We send cash right to your door."

Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medical, it keep you healthy!
By and by, I got plenty money,
Thanks to you---American dummy.

Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them come as fast as you can.
They come in rags and Chevy trucks,
I buy big house with welfare bucks.

They come, we live together,
More welfare cash, it gets better!
Fourteen families now move in,
But neighbors patience growing thin.

Finally, white guy moves away,
Now I buy his house and then I say.
Find more aliens for house to rent,
And in the yard I put a tent.

Send for family (they just trash),
But they too draw welfare cash!
Everything is mucho good,
Soon we own the neighborhood.

We have hobby---its called breeding,
Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife needs pills?
We get free! We got no bills!

America is crazy, he pay all year
To keep welfare running here.
We think America damn good place!
Too damn good for the white-man race.

If they no like us, they can go,
Got lots of room in Cuba, Haiti & Mexico

"Boy, I love America."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seriously this is what I think....

One point that upsets me is the fact that these illegal aliens are just that. Illegal. If I (or any reasonable person in my opinion) wished to immigrate to another country, I could guarantee that my first act when coming to the new country would not be to break the law. It seems to me like everyone is just talking about letting them off. OK, I agree that the laws need to be changed. But it is still the law.

I kinda like the guest worker visa idea. Maybe we could set up special border crossing points and have people there giving half hour orientations called "Welcome to the USA, land of opportunity.(if you are among the wealthy 5%)
Seriously, just give 'em a quick "Hi, how are ya? I'm Vern, who are you? Staying long?" Give them a guest worker visa and let 'em have at it. At least then they aren't here illegally. Have the visa be for X number of years and then the gotta apply for citizenship if they wanna stay.

They are gonna keep coming. We need to adjust our current laws so it is more like we are welcoming them and trying to help them intigrate rather than criminalise them. Those of the illegal ones that are already here should have to pay some small fine for breaking the law and then we can help them get back in good standing.

My conspiracy theory is that eventually our domestic and multi national corporations will keep sending jobs to Mexico and Latin America and Asia because us lazy overpaid USA workers want too much and eventaully all the jobs will be in other countries and our government will become a military dictatorship and we will be crossing the borders trying to find a better life for our families. I just hope they treat us better than we have treated immigrants throughout the history of the USA.
I don't differentiate a human by the place they were born. They all have equal value in my eyes. Living in this new global world I don't believe borders mean that much and we should treat people from other countries as we would people living in our own.