Death toll of US troops in Iraq passes September 11

[TankGirl]

The Independent:

The number of US troops killed in Iraq is now greater than the number of people who died in the terror attack on New York on 11 September 2001, an event unrelated to Saddam Hussein's regime but which the US and Britain used as justification for the invasion.

The milestone was passed when three members of a patrol were killed in a bomb explosion south of Baghdad on Monday. The military announced the death of four more troops yesterday - three in a bombing and a fourth in a vehicle accident. Combined, the US death toll now stands at 2,978 - five more than the number of people killed in the attacks on the World Trade Centre in 2001.

[Nicobie]

It's a sad thing that any had to die and It really doesn't matter who died first either.

It is not something that is always logical. It can't be taught in math class.

People will always fight in order that their descendent's can live.

It might seem rude to the rest of the world, but the US needed to show that they are not cowards.

Muslims know what I'm talking about.


BTW.... I don't think that 'god is good'. History shows that he/she/it is a bloody ogre.

[albed]

2,749 people were killed in New York City, sans terrorists, by the 9/11 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks

The truth isn't important though, it's the propaganda. Stupid people have to manipulate other stupid people by whatever means possible.

[Drakonix]

If you combine deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, the 9/11 death toll (for all attacks) was surpassed on 09/23/2006.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14959937/

My point here is that the 2,973 people that died in (all) the attacks on 09/11/2001 died in several incidents within approximately one and one half hours, and the 2,973 that died in Afghanistan and Iraq died over a period of approximately five years.

Let's see....
2,973 deaths in 90 minutes averages about 33 deaths per minute, or about 1 death every 1.8 seconds.
2,973 deaths in 5 years (about 2,628,000 minutes) averages about 1 death every 883 minutes, or approximately 1 death every 14 hours and 43 minutes.

Let’s compare the death rates. In Iraq/Afghanistan, there was (an average of) 1 death in 883 minutes. The 9/11 incidents didn’t occur over that large of a period of time. The 9/11 incidents claimed the lives in about 90 minutes. To compare the death rates we have to match time periods. Since the average for Iraq/Afghanistan is 1 death in 883 minutes, we’ll take the (average of) 33 deaths per minute and sustain it for the 883 minute period for 1 death to occur in Iraq and Afghanistan. 33 deaths per minute for 883 minutes = 29,139 deaths.

So....
If we are going to spend something as precious as human life, it certainly makes sense to be as frugal as possible within the circumstances.

Do we let terrorists run free, killing with wild abandon (33 deaths per minute for 883 minutes = 29,139 deaths) or challenge the terrorists on their own turf thereby taking losses at a lower rate (1 death as opposed to 29,139 deaths)?

It’s not much of a choice. It doesn't take much imagination to think what the 29,138 people that would not die in this example would say.

The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have training and weapons, and can fight back. The people that died in the terrorist attacks on 09/11 didn’t have a chance.

Neither the Democrats nor anyone else is going to be able to appease the Islamic jihadists. Islamic terrorists want us to be Islam or to be dead, and we are not going along with that plan.

Money from oil and (illicit) drugs fuel the jihad and extend it far beyond it's former restricted boundaries.

In a taped message to the leaders of the (U.S.) Democratic Party, Al Qaeda #2 man Ayman al Zawahri has warned that the credit for the recent defeat of congressional Republicans belongs to terrorists.

The taped message also called on Democrats to negotiate with Zawari and Osama Bin Laden only, and no others in the Islamic World.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...da_sends_.html

It is the standard Islamic “join us or die” stance commanded by the Qur’an in chapter nine verse five.

The Muslims can't even stop fighting amongst themselves, let alone consider such an agreement with International representatives.

Any amount of deaths is bad, but which death toll do you prefer - 2,973 deaths in 90 minutes by NOT fighting terrorists OR 2,793 deaths in 5 years by fighting terrorists?

[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by Drakonix

It is the standard Islamic “join us or die” stance commanded by the Qur’an in chapter nine verse five.

WOW brings back memories Drak. I remember that pakistane corner store owner ripping his hairs off when Bush said, either you are with us or against us when 9/11 happened. Not much difference there is there? Either you are with us or against us = “join us or die”. No difference at all. Same ideaoligy, different countries.

Originally Posted by Drakonix

The Muslims can't even stop fighting amongst themselves, let alone consider such an agreement with International representatives.

I remember a chapter of american history called the civil war, again, different beliefs which has lead to a clash between sunny/shiite muslims. If only the media would only actually say, civil was has errupted in Iraq ~SIGH~

When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty,
and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up
some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.

- Plato

[Drakonix]

Not much difference there is there?

Obviously, to you there is no difference.

To me, there is a huge difference.

President Bush is not a follower of Islam, and is therefor not following a "holy book" (the Qur'an) that contains instructions to kill everyone who is not Islam and will not convert to Islam.

You can go to http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ and read what the Qur’an says. The verse I reference as "join us or die" is in chapter nine, verse five (009.005). Chapter nine begins here http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html .

Let's consider the statement "either you are with us or against us when 9/11 happened". Actually, I think it is quite a fair assessment. By now the people that read this board know where both of us stand in that area.

Sorry, but to me "either you are with us or against us when 9/11 happened" is not even closely related to

Qur'an 009.005 (YUSUFALI):
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

As for the media (not) calling the situation in Iraq a “civil war”, I’m not sure why using that phrase is so important. Whatever label it is given does not change what is going on.

If I google the keywords “iraq civil war” I get a number of sites (including BBC, CBS) that used the term “civil war” regarding Iraq dating back years ago.

Blaming the current U.S. President for hostilities between religious factions in Iraq is ridiculous. The hostilities or “civil war” between the Kurds/Shiites/Sunnis has been going on long before President Bush (Sr. or Jr.) took office.

Islam’s game plan has not changed over the centuries. The Pope quoted 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who wrote that everything Mohammad brought was evil and inhuman, "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

As usual, you conveniently sidestepped the issue of discussion (Iraq death toll numbers) with a diversion to another subject likely to cause debate.

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by Drakonix

Do we let terrorists run free, killing with wild abandon (33 deaths per minute for 883 minutes = 29,139 deaths) or challenge the terrorists on their own turf thereby taking losses at a lower rate (1 death as opposed to 29,139 deaths)?

In the same 5 years there haven't been any more terrorist attacks on USA soil. The frequency may be different(I'll concede that) but the overall total for the same 5 years is approximately the same. I highly doubt that the family and loved ones of any of the dead care. The fact that they have lost a loved one is all that matters.
Another point is that the 3 thousand(or 2,793 for you sticklers) that died on Sept. 11 were civilians, not military as you pointed out. If we count up all the dead civilians in Iraq the total will be much higher. Even the families and loved ones of the dead Iraqii civilians probably don't care about frequency of death as much as the death itself.

[Drakonix]

Another point is that the 3 thousand(or 2,793 for you sticklers) that died on Sept. 11 were civilians, not military as you pointed out. If we count up all the dead civilians in Iraq the total will be much higher. Even the families and loved ones of the dead Iraqii civilians probably don't care about frequency of death as much as the death itself.

I agree that the survivors probably don’t care much for the statistics being tossed about.

However, a comparison between military deaths in Iraq and civilian deaths on 09/11/2001 is the topic of this thread.

If you wish to open the example to the entire five year period and encompass Iraqi civilians who died, it’s easy to expand the comparison to include the entire 5 year period instead of the minimum necessary 883 minutes.

24 hours per day X 60 minutes per hour = 1440 minutes per day
365 days per year X 5 years = 1825 days
1825 - 1 day less due to leap year = 1824 days in the 5 year period
1824 days X 1440 minutes per day = 2,626,560 minutes in the 5 year period

2, 626,560 minutes X 33 deaths per minute at the 9/11 death rate = 86,676,480 deaths, or nearly four times the population of Iraq. The population of Iraq (according to http://www.arab.de/arabinfo/iraq.htm ) is 22,219,289 using a 1997 estimation.

As I said previously:
Any amount of deaths is bad, but which death toll do you prefer - 2,973 deaths in 90 minutes by NOT fighting terrorists OR 2,793 deaths in 5 years by fighting terrorists?

[floydian slip]

Originally Posted by albed

Stupid people have to manipulate other stupid people by whatever means possible.

they manipulated you