A Generational Committment To Iraq

[theknife]

Condi Rice, on Fox News this morning:

And so the administration, I think, has said to the American people that it is a generational commitment to Iraq. But it is not a generational commitment in military terms; it is a commitment of our support to them, our political support and an understanding that democracy takes time.

a generation is roughly 25 years. now, i was listening pretty carefully during the marketing of the war and thereafter and i'm pretty sure i didn't hear anybody in the administration say "oh, by the way, this whole Iraq thing is going to take 25 years or so"...anybody else hear this?

no, i heard stuff like this:

[M]y belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly. . . (in) weeks rather than months - Dick Cheney, 3/16/03

and this:

It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months... - Donald Rumsfeld - 2/7/03

and this:

The United States is committed to helping Iraq recover from the conflict, but Iraq will not require sustained aid… - Budget Director Mitch Daniel, 3/28/03

no, Condi, the administration actually never said anything like this because if they had, nobody would swallowed all the rest of the shit you shoveled.

[Mazer]

Iraq has some pretty good oil fields, the people are educated, and there's lots of motivation. I still think they'll show signs of becomming self sufficient in a year or two. I dont' think you can actually measure how long a generation is, it's a group of people rather than a span of time. You may have noticed that the 'political pendulum' swings back and forth with the comming and going of each generation, and right now it's swinging toward the conservative side. It probably wasn't just this administration that chose to liberate Iraq as much as this whole generation. And when the pendulum swings again this nation will turn it's back on Iraq and leave them to their own devices. Hopefully before that happens they mature enough to be left alone.

Maybe the message to liberals here is that your turn is comming, but first the rest of us have important work to do, so be patient and don't try to stop us. Help out if you want, give constructive criticism, keep those in power from losing sight of the goal of Iraqi soverignty, adapt to these changes, and most of all keep a positive attitude. You can't stop the tide, but you can ride it, that's what we're doing, and you would do no less if the tide favored you. In the mean time make some improvements to your party's orgainzation to keep wackos like Howard Dean from making it impossible for you to lead responsibly in the future.

[albed]

SSSHHHHHHHHH Whose side are you on Mazer?


Howard Dean is a great man and a terrific leader.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Iraq has some pretty good oil fields, the people are educated, and there's lots of motivation. I still think they'll show signs of becomming self sufficient in a year or two. I dont' think you can actually measure how long a generation is, it's a group of people rather than a span of time. You may have noticed that the 'political pendulum' swings back and forth with the comming and going of each generation, and right now it's swinging toward the conservative side. It probably wasn't just this administration that chose to liberate Iraq as much as this whole generation. And when the pendulum swings again this nation will turn it's back on Iraq and leave them to their own devices. Hopefully before that happens they mature enough to be left alone.

Maybe the message to liberals here is that your turn is comming, but first the rest of us have important work to do, so be patient and don't try to stop us. Help out if you want, give constructive criticism, keep those in power from losing sight of the goal of Iraqi soverignty, adapt to these changes, and most of all keep a positive attitude. You can't stop the tide, but you can ride it, that's what we're doing, and you would do no less if the tide favored you. In the mean time make some improvements to your party's orgainzation to keep wackos like Howard Dean from making it impossible for you to lead responsibly in the future.

no, a generation is actually a time span:

generation - The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring

so obviously, since this interval could be anywhere from 15 to 50 years, 25 years is a reasonable average. since there is no foreseeable end to the bloodshed, and since neither you nor the President or the Vice-President can come up with anything more concrete than to dress the whole fiasco up as something resembling missionary work (save the poor Iraqis from themselves), there is little reason to assume the US future in Iraq holds anything other than further bloodshed, deceit, corruption, misappropriation of funds ($9 billion missing so far), profiteering etc.

"showing signs of becoming self-sufficient in a year or two" is not a good reason for young Americans to keep dying - i would suggest if you feel otherwise, you should down and see your local army recruiter because they desperately need young believers like yourself.

but before you put your life in the hands of the leaders who brought us this train wreck, you might want to check out a more realistic assessment of the situation from top Senate Republican Chuck Hagel:

"The White House is completely disconnected from reality," said Hagel. "It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq," said Hagel, who added that increasingly, fellow Republicans are coming to share his view.

listen to your party - your leaders are lost.

[Mazer]

Selective definition is a poor defense of your position. Here's the entire entry from the link you gave:

1. All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor: Mother and daughters represent two generations.
2. Biology. A form or stage in the life cycle of an organism: asexual generation of a fern.
3. The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.
4. a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
   b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).
5. a. A stage or period of sequential technological development and innovation.
   b. A class of objects derived from a preceding class: a new generation of computers.
6. The formation of a line or geometric figure by the movement of a point or line.
7. The act or process of generating; origination, production, or procreation.

I guess we're both right, nither defintion of the word is exclusive. But selecting a time frame to define a generation is a little more difficult. While people can bear children when they're as young as 13, the oldest woman to give birth was 66, and men can be fertile up into their 80's or 90's. I'll accept your average of 25 years, it seem to be the average period of that pendulum I mentioned. Anyway, we can parse semantics all you like, but you can't possibly know what Secetary Rice meant when she used that term, and I'm not sure I know either.

If you're so worried about the plight of this generation then you should run a "Don't Drink and Drive/Buckle Up for Safety" campaign, you'll save more lives that way. If I joined the military and went to Iraq I'd be more likely to be sued by the RIAA for filesharing than to be killed.

"It's like they're just making it up as they go along," said Hagel.

Wait, I thought you said they had been planning this since 9/11. Is Hagel right or are the conspiracy theorists right?

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Selective definition is a poor defense of your position. Here's the entire entry from the link you gave:

1. All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor: Mother and daughters represent two generations.
2. Biology. A form or stage in the life cycle of an organism: asexual generation of a fern.
3. The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.
4. a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
   b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).
5. a. A stage or period of sequential technological development and innovation.
   b. A class of objects derived from a preceding class: a new generation of computers.
6. The formation of a line or geometric figure by the movement of a point or line.
7. The act or process of generating; origination, production, or procreation.

I guess we're both right, nither defintion of the word is exclusive. But selecting a time frame to define a generation is a little more difficult. While people can bear children when they're as young as 13, the oldest woman to give birth was 66, and men can be fertile up into their 80's or 90's. I'll accept your average of 25 years, it seem to be the average period of that pendulum I mentioned. Anyway, we can parse semantics all you like, but you can't possibly know what Secetary Rice meant when she used that term, and I'm not sure I know either.

If you're so worried about the plight of this generation then you should run a "Don't Drink and Drive/Buckle Up for Safety" campaign, you'll save more lives that way. If I joined the military and went to Iraq I'd be more likely to be sued by the RIAA for filesharing than to be killed.


Wait, I thought you said they had been planning this since 9/11. Is Hagel right or are the conspiracy theorists right?

actually, i know exactly what Secretary Rice means: "generational commitment"' means committed for a generation - a euphemism for a "one way or the other, we'll be there for a couple of decades, give or take a few years". it's phrased as such to blunt the impact of the assessment.

and, like so many others, your enthusiasm for the mission in Iraq exists only to the extent that people other than yourself actually carry it out. we can only hope, for their sake, that Secretary Rice is wrong.

[Mazer]

Please don't question my reasons for supporting this war, or my reasons for staying home, because it's beneath you. I don't doubt that you support those troops every bit as much as I do, and I agree that they need to come home as soon as possible. But I am certain those soldiers understand the terms of their commitment, and whether or not they really want to be there they'll fulfill those terms. By now there are many soldiers there who signed up after the war started and they knew full well what they were getting themselves into. That a generation is willing to make such a commiment demonstrates the merit many young volunteers see in this struggle. It was their decisions as free citizens to enlist during wartime, and for that their loyalty is not to be questioned.