WASTE 1.6 "Special Edition"

[Mazer]

Hell, Jack, you make it sound like there's no room for improvement.

So, most of the WASTE updates up 'till now have been cosmetic. Big deal. Official is a useless term in the open source world to begin with. Which one is the 'official' GNU/Linux distribution? There is no such thing. Is Cohen's mainline BitTorrent client the 'official' client, or just the one that came first? Bittorrent purists are actually shying away from the mainline client because it's designed to participate in BitTorrent's nascent commercial distribution network. Being the only client that is actively developed by the original Bittorrent creator doesn't make it the only useful one.

Frankel has disowned his own creations. He quit Nullsoft because he no longer had control over Winamp's development. He didn't participate in Gnutella's development after he leaked the source code almost seven years ago, and it still became ubiquitous without his help. Now WASTE is languishing in relative obscurity and has not attracted any new developers in more than a year. Useful as it is, it's becoming more dinosauric as time goes by while Frankel has moved on to bigger and better projects.

WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

[vernarial]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Hell,
WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

What would you suggest these days, Mazer? I know you still use Waste. Is there a better option? Just wondering, not looking for debate.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by JackSpratts

in the meantime there are those who need objective information about this system now.

It's all there in the source code. Any and all security holes are visible, naked to the world. If the newer versions of WASTE were not as secure then either they would be fixed or nobody would use them. My advice to AngryGnome, use caution with any new software you try, but don't be afraid just because the original author had no part in this particular code branch. I'll bet there are coders out there who are just as talented as Justin Frankel, and I'd be willing to believe some of them had a hand in WASTE 1.6.

By the way, if I sound argumentative I apologize. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Political Asylum.

Originally Posted by vernarial

What would you suggest these days, Mazer? I know you still use Waste. Is there a better option? Just wondering, not looking for debate.

Personally I don't have an other preference. WASTE appeals to my inner geek (not to mention my curiosity about human nature), but WASTE scares a lot of people away because they don't have an inner geek. I'd suggest any program that encrypts all communications, and while public key encryption sounds great in theory, WASTE's implementation is too complex. Programs that use web standard Transport Layer Security also use public key encryption, but they handle the key exchange transparently making them much more accessible to non-technical users, and when you take away the guesswork then network security inherently improves.

AllPeers looks like a good alternative, though it does lack a group chat feature. It doesn't organize users into meshes like WASTE does; all connections are one to one so you can add someone to your personal buddy list without exposing the identities or files that others in your buddy list are sharing with you. No permission is required which means you have total control over your connection to your peers.

WASTE by contrast builds webs of trust and forces individuals to consider other people because the actions of one individual can affect the whole group. This is not always a good thing, given the low level of rationality and maturity that many internet users demonstrate. I've seen groupthink split meshes apart and drive members away. WASTE just isn't for everybody, in fact it's not for most people.

I've learned a lot about prejudice and fear from my experiences with WASTE. The software is more like a mad scientist's social experiment than a serious file sharing tool, but it does the job as advertised. In the future I'd prefer to use an encrypted file sharing tool that does not raise animosity and make people afraid of the outside world, and my search for a program with those features continues.

[Malk-a-mite]

Originally Posted by Mazer

It's all there in the source code. Any and all security holes are visible, naked to the world.

Quick point, most of the world doesn't care to look at the code, and of those that do not all of them are qualified to tell what is a security hole and what isn't.

Just something to keep in mind.

[theknife]

Originally Posted by Mazer

WASTE by contrast builds webs of trust and forces individuals to consider other people because the actions of one individual can affect the whole group. This is not always a good thing, given the low level of rationality and maturity that many internet users demonstrate. I've seen groupthink split meshes apart and drive members away. WASTE just isn't for everybody, in fact it's not for most people.

I've learned a lot about prejudice and fear from my experiences with WASTE. The software is more like a mad scientist's social experiment than a serious file sharing tool, but it does the job as advertised. In the future I'd prefer to use an encrypted file sharing tool that does not raise animosity and make people afraid of the outside world, and my search for a program with those features continues.

it is a particular political and legal climate that makes a program like Waste necessary in the first place...and it is this climate that breeds the fear and prejudice that Waste users may experience. the software only creates a group dynamic for a valid paranoia, because there really are powerful forces at work against people who would use a program like Waste.

[Mazer]

Originally Posted by Malk-a-mite

Quick point, most of the world doesn't care to look at the code, and of those that do not all of them are qualified to tell what is a security hole and what isn't.

I count myself among that first group. I've never bothered to look at the source code. I put my trust in the competitive self interest and paranoia of the programmers and hackers who use their own software. If it's good enough for those people who actually know how to find security holes then it's good enough for me. Of course I leave this decision to each of us individually. If someone decides that they only trust the original programmer and none of the ones that came after him, fine.

Originally Posted by theknife

it is a particular political and legal climate that makes a program like Waste necessary in the first place...and it is this climate that breeds the fear and prejudice that Waste users may experience. the software only creates a group dynamic for a valid paranoia, because there really are powerful forces at work against people who would use a program like Waste.

People still find ways to feel unsafe within the strictures of WASTE's peculiar group dynamic. The legal climate makes the encryption necessary, but it doesn't make the infighting and the ostracizing and the turning of friends against each other necessary. As much as possible the software should shelter its users from the climate of fear and prejudice outside, but it often does not. Once you've exiled all the people in your mesh who make you feel unsafe (something you can only do by making them want to leave on their own), WASTE works perfectly.

[JackSpratts]

Originally Posted by Mazer

By the way, if I sound argumentative I apologize. Maybe I've been spending too much time in the Political Asylum.

well ok, but calling waste the 8-track of secure file-sharing was a bit extreme.

if only it were true!

imagine hopping into a multi-colored van and being greeted with "Dude! You gotta check out this new MESH!"

Originally Posted by Mazer

Once you've exiled all the people in your mesh who make you feel unsafe (something you can only do by making them want to leave on their own), WASTE works perfectly.

you've just described every private tracker i've ever visited lol. ditto btw soulseek and its own brand of ban-mad power-sharers.

in the p2p community waste has no monopoly on social tension and uber-cliques, peculiar or otherwise. one need only gaze back at the turbulent genesis of this very forum to see that. but yes, as long as apathy, member differences or a determined troll can disrupt a community then waste groups, like any social organization will be vulnerable. on the other hand since no one can be forced to leave under any circumstances i’m always happily surprised to see meshes lasting as long as they do.

- js.

[Mazer]

Well there's always that I guess. My own Wasted experiences have never turned me against anyone, I've only ever watch it happen to other people. Once a mesh does manage to settle into a groove it's a beautiful thing. Building a successful mesh is a growing experience for all those involved, and the reward is longevity. But is filesharing really supposed to be a test of character?

The answer is probably blowin' in the wind or something.

I think the security WASTE provides is sufficient, but there's room for improvement in its social features. Does the way WASTE brings out the paranoia in people enhance its security in any way? I don't think it does and if that effect could be eliminated then it would be for the better. That's why I'm not a WASTE purist.

[JackSpratts]

Originally Posted by Mazer

Hell, Jack, you make it sound like there's no room for improvement.

not at all - as long as the focus is security. why else use waste?

Originally Posted by Mazer

Official is a useless term in the open source world to begin with.

you’ve paraphrased my main point (and with less diplomacy) but agreed mazer.

Originally Posted by Mazer

Frankel has disowned his own creations.

disown is a strong word. it denotes action frankel hasn’t to my knowledge taken (for all i know he’s working privately). he’s appears to have lost interest in public collaborations certainly.

Originally Posted by Mazer

WASTE is the 8-track of secure file sharing. It's time for something better.

that may be (although i find important uses for it hourly), if the history of p2p can be our guide we all know that something will come along to replace it, but in the meantime there are those who need objective information about this system now.

- js.