Welcome Shawn

[gazdet]

Hey there Shawn, Thankyou for you interest in the development of a Musicians and P2P link/filesharing forum for Napsterites.

I may not be in the forum when you next visit, so I have enabled you to view this forum, no other members can see it at this stage apart from myself, Lezzbeefriends and Tankgirl.

Please feel free to use this area to discuss developments as we get the ball rolling...it's quicker than PM's (we can then delete the relavent threads when are ready to open it.)

I have kicked the place off with a proposed theme...I look forward to your input once you have had a look around.

Welcome aboard...

Gary.

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Wow. (Just wanted to say that first) New mind toys... I'm very honored to be part of this. Thank you all.

On first hearing of this idea, I reflected on the old nappy "signed and unsigned artist sections" and how they degenerated into exhaustive lists of repetitious, uninformative and therefor ineffective self-promotional blurbs, -hey check out my music!!! it's badass!!! [link]-

So, obviously your layout here anticipates some of my concerns about that. I think the idea of 3 'sub forums' is great, although I think the subject matter could be just a bit more open and still retain consistency...

I think the main forum should definitely center on discussions concerning artists interfacing with the internet and with each other in general: not only p2p tech (criticisms, ideas, philosophies), but things like how to build an ftp site and up to and including things like home studios (equipment reviews, techniques), all phases of cd manufacturing, (from burning to shrinkwrapping, shipping, distribution) discussions about the recording industry at large, and even things like (perhaps eventually) regular musical shop-talk (picture guitar players trading chord charts, keyboardists trading sounds etc.) - keeping an eye on the emergence of collabrative online systems... (which I personally have no experience of.. yet) ... anyway, my initial feedback is I think I may feel this could be a bit more open-ended... ... maybe "Music and Technology"... something like that... I think there would be enough interesting information here to completely differentiate it from the P2P forum, bearing in mind that its main philosophical gear would be, quoting tankgirl "The presence of the artists becom(ing) especially meaningful and valuable in case we started to develop and test our own, 'socially intelligent' filesharing tool."

Similar feelings about the second forum: the music room. I don't really think discussion here should be discouraged in any way. The manifesto should obviously embrace self promotion here, but in an open environment. I don't see any reason really to have mini-fora here... I guess I'm saying we should let the artists themselves determine their own approach in a normal, threaded environment. ...see what develops. With bumping etc, I think we'd see the most interesting work, the most successful approaches, become interactive... I fear somewhat, perhaps, that even the suggestion of locking the threads (which is a general option anyway, right?) could only encourage the sort of informationlessness that really usually spells death to the user's interest.

As an artist, I know that in 'self promotion' of one's work generally one hopes to actually provoke response... either "i love it" or... well...anything, hopefully intelligent discussion. But what's happening here is the elimination, to some degree, of the usual buffer zone between artists and the perception, at large, of their work. lol. This is a shocking prospect to a lot of artists, and I think this is a significant factor...The interaction I think would create the sort of environment where people who are going to just post bland links etc would naturally be encouraged to be more creative, more communicative. I think the second forum should simply be called "Independent Music" or even "New Music" - and let it simply be as open-ended as that. For that matter, let that title be taken literally by all - let people post reviews of their latest finds...any interpretation of "New Music or Independent Music" that occurs to them. I strongly suggest encouraging any sort of "privatized objects" here would have a negative effect on the overall interest level...

The third forum, a test forum, obviously great idea, and something I hadn't really even considered. (This would also increase the coherence of the graphic test forum as well, as things like audio embedding and audio link testing etc migrated here.)

Anyway, my initial feedback are these considerations. In a sense, just a broader generalization of the concepts. I'm very open. Are these considerations too open-ended, or too inclusive of things that should remain elements of the main forum(s), too ambitious?

What do you guys think?


bless you guys,
shawn

[gazdet]

Thanks for the recommendations Shawn, I briefly scanned thru your post and we shall look into them.

I have been away helping at another forum all night and its 2am here now...sleep time... I shall partake of further discussions tomorrow

Catchya then

[Ramona_A_Stone]

Groovy cool man. I'm in much the same boat, been both swamped and sleep deprived lately. Today I have a bit of Sunday Syndrome, that sort of neccessary mindlessness mentioned in the bible. hehehe.

Looking forward.

[lezzbeefriends]

Hey Ramona!

Welcome!! Well sweetie you’ve got yourself a nice place to develop. I can appreciate your concerns about the way the old nappy forum treated that particular section of its forum. I found myself entering that area fewer and fewer times as it became rather banal. It was mostly just as you described it! YUCK!!

However, they didn’t have you. We do- so I know you will never allow this place to become anything like the other place. You’re much more interactive and dynamic than the stonewalls nappy erected around itself. It may start out in a similar fashion, but when the artists begin to see how they are treated here and your wonderful interaction with them I’m sure it will move in a much more positive fashion.

Yes, threads can be locked to whatever guidelines you feel best for this forum. But as you so wisely mentioned, by doing so invokes its own set of issues. I would think that if I were a serious artist wanting exposure to my talents I would welcome and work with the forum operators to have the very best light cast on my work. They will need the interaction and the ability to discuss specific issues with the community. Just seems common sense to me.

I like your ideas and I see a natural fit to some of the other things I’ve discussed with Gaz and Tank Girl about the future.
So well done Shawn! We are very honored to have you assist the community with your obvious talents and expertise in this area. If you need anything don’t hesitate to call me.

Love ya-
lbf

[gazdet]

Originally posted by Ramona_A_Stone
On first hearing of this idea, I reflected on the old nappy "signed and unsigned artist sections" and how they degenerated into exhaustive lists of repetitious, uninformative and therefor ineffective self-promotional blurbs, -hey check out my music!!! it's badass!!! [link]-

So, obviously your layout here anticipates some of my concerns about that. I think the idea of 3 'sub forums' is great, although I think the subject matter could be just a bit more open and still retain consistency...

My initial thoughts were to make available separate rooms for each artist to "store" their works, like an online CD attached to a forum, within their own personal forum area .

That was my thought behind the concept of having a personal forum area for each artist.

The forum rooms could be added to a "Music area" grouping as each artist applied for one.. they would not be available to the "fly by night - check out my link" type poster.

The artist would have to have a minimum amount of songs (say 6) to obtain a room...and consideration of their own gain from external advertising would need to be considered as well.
(I dont necessarily want mp3.com ads all over the place.. in the forum or by links....though this will have to be looked into)

How that artist ran their room , ie by locking threads that held links, or leaving them open to encourage feedback, could be entirely up to the artists themselves.

I think the main forum should definitely center on discussions concerning artists interfacing with the internet and with each other in general: not only p2p tech (criticisms, ideas, philosophies), but things like how to build an ftp site and up to and including things like home studios (equipment reviews, techniques), all phases of cd manufacturing, (from burning to shrinkwrapping, shipping, distribution) discussions about the recording industry at large, and even things like (perhaps eventually) regular musical shop-talk (picture guitar players trading chord charts, keyboardists trading sounds etc.) - keeping an eye on the emergence of collabrative online systems... (which I personally have no experience of.. yet) ... anyway, my initial feedback is I think I may feel this could be a bit more open-ended... ... maybe "Music and Technology"... something like that... I think there would be enough interesting information here to completely differentiate it from the P2P forum, bearing in mind that its main philosophical gear would be, quoting tankgirl "The presence of the artists becom(ing) especially meaningful and valuable in case we started to develop and test our own, 'socially intelligent' filesharing tool."

I have changed the title accordingly...

The general Forum area would be an ideal platform for the introduction and discussion of any new specific freeshare filesharing program that was to become available.

I don't think creating a multitude of subforums up front is the way to go in respect to general discussion areas.

I have always encouraged a common forum area (i.e the Underground) and from that, a blend of topics,direction and areas of discussion unfolds.

In time, and as the need to stop focused topic areas sinking into the abyss occurs, new forums could be established to focus on those areas which are popular enough to warrant it.

Similar feelings about the second forum: the music room. I don't really think discussion here should be discouraged in any way. The manifesto should obviously embrace self promotion here, but in an open environment. I don't see any reason really to have mini-fora here... I guess I'm saying we should let the artists themselves determine their own approach in a normal, threaded environment. ...see what develops. With bumping etc, I think we'd see the most interesting work, the most successful approaches, become interactive... I fear somewhat, perhaps, that even the suggestion of locking the threads (which is a general option anyway, right?) could only encourage the sort of informationlessness that really usually spells death to the user's interest.

Well perhaps I need some clarification on this... do you feel that a mixed open general Music board, that has links posted to any artist's work in general, with the best artists rising to the top by "bumping" as such is a better way to go?

I totally agree that the General area should be used to primarily discuss an artists work, .... however my thoughts as described before, were to have personal areas where the musician could store those works/links and threads after they were discussed in the general forum area (via your move/copy function), so that in time, if a member was interested in checking out all your songs and the topics that were generated from those songs, they wouldn't have to search back through a multitude of threads to actually locate them within the General Discussion area.

In time, as the artist got more well known...that artists own private forum area would take on a life of it's own as well, therefore perhaps creating a more focused discussion on their music as the popularity of that artist rose.....

Just my thoughts, but I'm very open to your collective ideas on the matter..

As an artist, I know that in 'self promotion' of one's work generally one hopes to actually provoke response... either "i love it" or... well...anything, hopefully intelligent discussion. But what's happening here is the elimination, to some degree, of the usual buffer zone between artists and the perception, at large, of their work. lol. This is a shocking prospect to a lot of artists, and I think this is a significant factor...The interaction I think would create the sort of environment where people who are going to just post bland links etc would naturally be encouraged to be more creative, more communicative. I think the second forum should simply be called "Independent Music" or even "New Music" - and let it simply be as open-ended as that. For that matter, let that title be taken literally by all - let people post reviews of their latest finds...any interpretation of "New Music or Independent Music" that occurs to them. I strongly suggest encouraging any sort of "privatized objects" here would have a negative effect on the overall interest level...

The private areas aren't "second forums" they are created out of the masses appreciation of the work...and the artists ability to produce the songs etc.

I thought that the incentive and availablity of "earning" a private forum storage area, would have encouraged members to interact and actually be another goal with which to aim for in sharing and producing their music..

All members would primarily introduce their works in the general forum area for discussion and feedback. ..in time and if they want, they can then apply for a private storage/discussion forum.

Forums for "New Music...or Independant Artists" is a good option too.......although at the start.. all subject matter would probaby be best contained in the General area....untill such time as the new areas were needed. (we can add anything we want really)

I'm all for separate General Discussion forums of whatever type you see fit.. should the need arise....we dont want to thin it out too much at the start I think.

My main objective with the private forum thing, was to provide a structure for what may happen in time...

The private forums do not need to be added now..what you see is for example purposes only.

The third forum, a test forum, obviously great idea, and something I hadn't really even considered. (This would also increase the coherence of the graphic test forum as well, as things like audio embedding and audio link testing etc migrated here.)

Embedding sounds into general forum areas is a problem for those of us on 56k modems etc... it is not permitted in the other forum areas anymore as it made page loading very slow.

A specific test or sample forum for sounds could be looked into where members that have faster connections can go to hear songs that a member would like to post...they would know what they are in for...

A word of caution...in order to limit spammers and abuse, the embeded audio must not be automatically enabled upon entry to a thread...this would have to be monitored because if two people set autostart embeded sounds into a thread....there are two songs playing at the same time....this could also be a way to cause disruption.

Anyway, my initial feedback are these considerations. In a sense, just a broader generalization of the concepts. I'm very open. Are these considerations too open-ended, or too inclusive of things that should remain elements of the main forum(s), too ambitious?

What do you guys think?


bless you guys,
shawn

Im sure we will bandy this topic around untill we are familiar with eachothers views and develop a concept based also on the limitations that some ideas may have with them due to technical reasons within the forum software, or any potential abuse of forum etiquette is covered.

In regards to an artists work being advertised here and the placing of links to commercial sites (mp3.com etc), how do you see that fitting in with our normal forum policy of no advertising?

I have not allowed commercial links to be displayed here so far...this is a self funded forum concept.

I know the artists would be encouraging people to buy their works..that's only fair to cover their running costs and production.

Some points to consider,.....In time the potential popularity of this concept will naturally require an increase in server/host demand...ie more cost to myself.... if this becomes the case, some form of community support may be appropriate to actually help fund the running costs of the forum itself. (I dont like ads)

I certainly dont mind continuing to pay for what we have here.(heck.. I love doing this stuff, it makes me feel good )..as long as it isn't overly exploited to make personal monetary gain at my expense... it also detracts from the "free" sharing concept that we all like so much...

anyway.. food for thought....


gaz