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26-06-05, 09:44 AM | #61 | ||
my name is Ranking Fullstop
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M ichael Smith of the Sunday Times keeps on digging up more dirt:
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26-06-05, 01:18 PM | #62 | |
my name is Ranking Fullstop
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Ed Williams, NYT editorial writer, in today's Charlotte Observer hits the nail right dead smack on the head:
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Karl Rove can keep on giving speeches that liberals are pussies and dissent is unpatriotic, but his attempts to deflect attention from the real issues are pitifully transparent. as chief architect of administration policy, there isn't a thing he can say to mitigate the inherent duplicity and gross incompetence of the Bush administration. |
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26-06-05, 05:02 PM | #63 | |
Earthbound misfit
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This is my plea that everyone reserve judgement until judgement has been passed in a court of law. And if that never happens then that's just the way it's going to be. Trust our Constitutional system to hold those accountable to account, and if you can't trust it then change it, if you think you can. Elect a new government if you don't find this one agreeable. Have a little patience, my friends. We wouldn't want our troops to come back to find their homeland in ruins because we couldn't agree on the resons for sending them off if the first place. Not that we would actually do such a thing, but still, we want them to be as proud of us as we are of them. A little healthy skepticism will go a long way toward keeping this nation intact, else we risk betraying those who put their lives on the line for us. |
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27-06-05, 02:57 AM | #64 |
My eyes are now open.
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Good post Mazer.
All what you say makes perfect sense. My only gripe is,you have to have debate. Are you saying mainstream media cannot take part, they are not to print views that are in the minority. The bottom line is,the administration possibly broke the law and must be held accountable if proven. Shame that America is split right down the middle but you get that when you have extreme right or left government. The world view is "That Bloody Woman"(TBW)was popular in Britain,yes she won three elections to prove it. The facts are different.We had a extreme left wing Labour party at the time,which never would have been elected,so no competition. Plus whose who didn't like her,hated her with a hate. I for one couldn't stand the silly cow,just thinking about her makes my blood boil.The classic phase from her"The Enemy Within" talking about working people fighting to save their livelihoods I sense the same thing about the Bush administration, you either like it or hate it. In last years election what choice did you have. Kerry for me was a toss pot who didn't seem to know what he stood for. Was that was the best the democrats could come up with? What's that phrase "They drink the sand because they don't know the difference"something like that.From the film The America President with Mike Douglas. Debate is healthy and more debate is healthier too,people feel better if they can express their views right or wrong. Calling people names because they don't support one view is unhealthy and leads to mutualy loathing.
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27-06-05, 07:40 AM | #65 |
Earthbound misfit
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Yes, that was what I was getting at. Debate is healthy as you say, but arguing for the sake of arguing isn't and neither is jumping to conclusions. I'm willing to keep an open mind as long as debate continues and as long as facts are discussed. Expressing one's opinion is a two way street; you need to be willing to hear opposing opinions without crying foul if you're ever to accomplish anything.
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27-06-05, 08:46 AM | #66 |
My eyes are now open.
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Listening to other points of view is so important in a healthy democracy.
Sometimes this is forgotten what a freedom this is. To be shouted down and called names or smeared is not right. But of course the freedom to be stupid is still a freedom of sorts. Politics is a dirty game,sometimes moral issues have to be put aside to get the end result. I know "TBW"worked with Chilli's government during our dispute with Argentina.Even though it was a right wing dictatorship, With dreadful human rights issues Sometimes the rules have to be bent to achieve the end. In that case no law was broken and the British government managed to keep it quiet. Years later it came out and "TBW"defended her action on the grounds that it saved British lives.Ends justifying means and all that. It seems to me that the Bush administration is not too good at covering it's tracks,thence the name calling. At the end if it's proven they broke the law, I don't think it's right that they get away with it. I know we need the oil in the west,and Britain backing the states is in my opinion the right thing for Britain. I just wish it could all be a little more honest and within the laws of each respective country
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27-06-05, 12:15 PM | #67 |
my name is Ranking Fullstop
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the media is a critical part of this debate, and it is because of the media's failures that this debate is even necessary.
in a healthy democracy, the media's role should be that of a watchdog - challenging and adversarial, because that is the only thing that keeps government even slightly honest. the US media rolled over like sick sheep after 9/11, didn't ask the hard questions when Bush was selling us a war we didn't need, was too afraid of looking unpatriotic and basically allowed the adminstration to dictate the terms of the debate.... and look where that has gotten us. Mazer's logic is an extension of this mindset: criticism is unpatriotic and divisive, questioning the war and how we got there hurts the troops, editorial dissent is propaganda etc. this is the same mentality that allowed us to get swept into this arguably illegal, certainly foolish, and apparently unwinnable war in the first place. by questioning it, by investigating how we got there, by demanding some accountability from the leaders who misrepresented the material facts, then can lessons be learned from the catastrophic mistakes we have made. the media doesn't create the problem - they only make people aware of it. this awareness is how things that are broken in a democracy get fixed. |
27-06-05, 03:28 PM | #68 | |
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I agree EDIT Now Knife, you do know the media is owned by corporations right? In 1983 fifty corporations dominated most of every mass medium and by 1997 with all the mergers that number dropped to 10. Info from Ben H. Bagdikian book The Media Monopoly… Now in 2005 that number could be lower.
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27-06-05, 06:28 PM | #69 | |
Earthbound misfit
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The divide and conquer approach does not work for political reporting. Convincing one half of the citizenry of a presidential conspiracy doesn't make convincing the other half any easier, and in fact it may make that other half more vocal and disidient. In that situation the lessons to be learned would be hard and few; mostly you would learn that polarizing the nation is a mistake to begin with. If the media is to report on the Downing Street minutes it must frame the debate in a way that allows all points of view to be understood, all evidence to be admited, and all accusations to be cross examined, and after that you may begin to question, to investigate, and ultimately to hold someone accountable. This can be done in public forums, in Congress, and in the courts as well as the media, but the point is that the truth is meaningless unless you follow a logical, balanced, methodic process to uncover it. This has yet to happen. The media may not have created this problem, but it can sure make it worse. Raising awareness is one thing, but the reporters you've quoted so far are just drawing lines in the sand. |
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27-06-05, 07:45 PM | #70 | |
flippin 'em off
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And I guess they didn't create any problems revealing that a certain woman was a CIA agent. The media has it's own selfish agenda and it means screwing other people or organizations they have no problem with that. |
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30-06-05, 01:14 PM | #71 | |
my name is Ranking Fullstop
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the latest Zogby poll
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