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11-08-07, 11:10 AM | #1 | |
Earthbound misfit
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The link is down or else I'd read the whole article and give a better reply, but anyway.
Quote:
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11-08-07, 03:49 PM | #2 | |
Thanks for being with arse
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damn it !
sorry about that Quote:
No army was needed ... democracy was circumvented and fascist capitalisim slowly manuvered into place.. edit: yes the link is indeed dead.... I thought it would be back by now 2 days later.. Last edited by multi : 12-08-07 at 04:24 AM. |
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14-08-07, 07:12 PM | #3 |
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15-08-07, 12:26 PM | #4 |
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Multi
...It is well known that Hollywood screenwriting in the 1930s was replete with Communist-inspired sentiment. And of course we must not forget that FDR was himself a (somewhat renegade) member of the very class that would have toppled him. While FDR was open to watered-down Keynesian policies in a way that very few of his class comrades were, his commitment (like Keynes's) to the "free enterprise" system was unconditional. He had no interest in publicizing a plot that might constitute a public-relations victory for anti-capitalist politics. He therefore refused to out the plotters, and sought no punitive measures against them. In the end, class solidarity carried the day for Roosevelt. The Congressional committee cooperated by refusing to reveal the names of many of the key plotters. Thus, fascist tendencies gestating deep within the culture of the U.S. ruling class were effectively left to develop unhindered by mass political mobilization. Might this grisly episode have important implications for our understanding of the current political moment? One may be inclined to think so on the basis of the fact that one of the architects of the plot was one Prescott Bush, grandfather of George W. Bush. Bush, along with many other big businessmen, had maintained friendly relations in 1933 and 1934 with the new German government of Chancellor Adolph Hitler, and was designated to form for his class conspirators a working relationship with that government. While Bush-bashing is highly recommended, the implications of this unsettling piece of history for contemporary politics run deeper than many of us would like to think. There is the temptation to point triumphantly to George W. Bush's commitment to the irrelevance of the Constitution, which he has sneeringly referred to as "a piece of paper", his corresponding contempt for hitherto taken-for-granted fundamental human rights, his Hobbesian notion of unbridled sovereignty, his militarized notion of political power and corresponding bull-in-a-china-shop foreign policy - there is the temptation to regard these genuinely fascist elements as the most significant contemporary remnant of the 1934 conspiracy. But no less important is the utter absence in 1934 of liberal attempts to educate the public to, and mobilize the population against, the fascist threat. FDR stood down. Although Rooseveltian/New Deal liberalism is dead, contemporary Democrats do sustain one of FDR's least seemly qualities, namely his refusal to encourage effective mass opposition to fascist and imperialist politics. John Kerry boasted of having contributed to the drafting of the Patriot Act. And in the most recent round of crucial legislation regarding the war in Iraq, the Democrats gave Bush everything he wanted. All the major presidential contenders of both parties support a permanent U.S. presence in Iraq. None has repudiated the concept that Uncle sam is and should ever be the global hegemon. And most importantly, none has repudiated the Neoliberal Consensus, the notion that the market should be left to operate as "freely" as the public can be persuaded to allow it to act, and, crucially, that this is a model that should be imposed globally through the power of the U.S. working in tandem with such powerful global institutions as the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO. To the extent that this policy has been successful, inequalities between national classes and between the global North and South have widened dramatically since the decline of the Keynesian consensus in the mid-1970s. Since the Mondale candidacy, no Democrat has had a full-employment plank in his presidential platform. The median wage has been in secular decline since 1973, and the distribution of national income between capital and labor has not been as skewed toward capital since the Great Depression. But no member of either party has made a major issue of this. One of the most powerful obstacles to appreciating the relevance of the 1934 planned coup to our times is the virtually ubiquitous misconception that the gross inequalities and anti-working-class policies now evident, and the reckless carnage that characterizes U.S. foreign policy, is the result of the "neoconservative revolution" ushered in by George W. Bush. But it was Clinton's cynical jettisoning of his relatively progressive Economic Stimulus Plan, his abolition of "welfare as we know it" without providing a replacement, and his ruthless bombing of Yugoslavia and "sanctions" against Iraq that both foreshadowed and paved the way for Bush's atrocities. The truism that the Democratic Party has moved ever closer to the Republicans since the Carter administration must not be forgotten. Indeed it is an understatement. To fully appreciate the reality of democratic capitulation as an alleged "opposition party" we need only reflect upon the consequences of Clinton's sanctions against Iraq. Clinton bombed Iraq several times weekly for eight years. Defense Information Agency documents, now available through the Freedom of Information Act, reveal that the strategy of the bombing was to extensively bomb water purification facilities and power generating facilities with the explicit intention to spread diseases that would affect children. The idea was to pressure ordinary Iraqis to overthrow Saddam, with the knowledge that if they did so, the pedicide would cease. But Iraqis blamed Washington for this catastrophe, not Saddam. When Saddam offered to accede to Clinton's requirements for ending the bombing, Clinton abruptly replied that no possible concessions on Saddam's part would lead him to end the bombing/sanctions. Extensive investigations by widely respected sources, including the distinguished British medical journal The Lancet, determined that the number of Iraqi children who died as a direct result of the pedicidal bombardment was 467,000. And it added a fact unreported in the U.S. media, that the U.S. use of depleted uranium in the attacks had resulted in the first known cases of breast cancer afflicting four-year-old girls. When Clinton's Secretary of state Madeline Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl in 1996 on 60 Minutes whether she thought that the removal of Saddam from power was worth killing a half million children, she replied that "Yes, it was worth it." Is this qualitatively different from the death and destruction that Bush has wrought? Of course not. The British playwright Harold Pinter has characterized both Clinton and Bush as "mass murderers", and the accusation sounds indeed brutal. But is it accurate? How can one deny that it is? Today's Democrats' abdication of the role of opposition party is far more consequential than Roosevelt's decision to permit our embryonic fascists to continue to gestate. The difference between FDR and his Republican antagonists was far greater than the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats today. Today's Democrats have internalized and identified with the interests of those whom they should be actively mobilizing the population against. The Republocrats are now all of them heir to the fascist instincts inherent in the ruling elite. Republican elites manifest this in their policies as the party in power; Democratic elites evidence their unsavory class heritage by railing ritualistically against the Republicans even as they betray their fed-up constituencies by supporting the fundamental policies of their alleged "opponents". Effective opposition at the current historical juncture requires the only force capable of defeating the neoliberal and imperialist obsessions of the mainstream parties and their financial masters: street politics, the mobilization and eventual organization of the people against a ruling establishment seen by an increasing number of Americans as terminally corrupt and indifferent to their most pressing needs. Lest this popular disaffection be siphoned into an impotent and resigned cynicism, it would seem that intense educational efforts regarding the desirability and possibility of a third party, a genuine party of labor, become a priority for serious progressives. MoveOn must yield to MoveBeyond. As harder economic times threaten the not distant future, the economic stagnation and austerity that is fertile soil for the growth of fascist politics poses an unmistakably clear and present danger. Thinking and acting outside the political box has never been as pressing an imperative as it is now. Alan Nasser is professor emeritus of Political Economy at The Evergreen State College in Olympia Wa. His articles have appeared in The Nation, Monthly Review, Commonweal, Common Dreams and a number of professional journals. That link worked for me |
15-08-07, 05:38 PM | #5 |
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That link worked for me
It did not work for me as it was mostly gibberish.. Is is impossable to have one's own thoughts?
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15-08-07, 06:01 PM | #6 |
The Fungus Among Us
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I call bull on that statement. It was the hard working american men and women who got us out of the depression and through the wars. The military industrial complex just made the money from the wars.
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15-08-07, 07:18 PM | #7 |
Thanks for being with arse
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probably more than we will ever know..
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16-08-07, 12:11 AM | #8 |
Earthbound misfit
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Yes, industry, i.e. hard working Americans, brought an end to the depression, and the military, i.e. hard working Americans, brought us through the wars. You're not actually in disagreement with me, vern, you've just got this weird idea in your head that American people and American businesses are two different things.
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16-08-07, 07:01 AM | #9 |
The Fungus Among Us
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I don't think it's such a weird idea. Sure the business and military are run by people, but not the average majority of the population. The working class. They are the ones I speak of. They are in the military out of idealistic reasons(mostly), and are in business(work) to make a living. The business and military folks are in it for power and money. Their reasons and goals are a world apart in my opinion.
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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. - William Blake P2P Consortium |
16-08-07, 09:45 AM | #10 |
Earthbound misfit
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16-08-07, 09:48 PM | #11 |
The Fungus Among Us
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That's not what I'm saying at all, Mazer. But the people who profit the most from war aren't the usual entrepreneurs. They are the usually the supremely wealthy and those in power, often one and the same. Like the movers and shakers in the military industrial complex. And not all entrepreneurs are just in it for the profit, for that matter. The point of disagreement is that the American people and American businesses are different, in my opinion. The main function of business is to earn a preofit for the most part. The main function of the people is to live and try to create a better life. (or something like that).
So you said the miltary industrial complex got us out of the depression and wars, and I say it's the blue collar workers who work for the military industrial complex and other businesses(of course) who got us out of those situation. Maybe I'm just arguing symantics here. So I see what you mean, because you include the worker in the overall picture of the military industrial complex and business. I separate the worker from the ruling class that actually runs the military industrial complex and alot of big conglomerate corporations. @ Albed Hard working americans usually get jobs, and don't give them. I don't see where, in that quote you gave from me, I said anything to give you the impression that I meant hard working americans give themselves jobs. But since you asked, some hard working americans are wise and frugal, and after a period of working for the man and saving up money, they can start their own business thus giving themselves a job.
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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. - William Blake P2P Consortium |
17-08-07, 02:43 AM | #12 |
flippin 'em off
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One of the biggest aspects of the great depression was unemployment; hard working americans without jobs.
It's hard to see just how those hard working americans without jobs ended the depression but you apparently can and I'd like you to explain. |
17-08-07, 08:15 AM | #13 |
The Fungus Among Us
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About 80% of americans were still working during the great depression. There wasn't an absolute lack of Jobs during the Depression. And there is very little growth in my country without the hard work of the laborer(or slaves earlier in US histroy). Just because government and corporations run the show, doesn't mean they can get anything done without the worker. Govenment and industry can create jobs, but who is gonna do them? So maybe you see it as FDR saved the country with the New Deal. But the Depression continued several more years after it was introduced. I think it was the fact that a majority of hard working americans continued to go to work and pay taxes and not panic.
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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. - William Blake P2P Consortium |
17-08-07, 12:24 PM | #14 | |
Earthbound misfit
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Quote:
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17-08-07, 04:38 PM | #15 |
The Fungus Among Us
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Oh shit. What did I get myself into.
Yes, I am making class distinctions. It is just my commie indoctinated opinion that it all boils down to those that do the grunt work. So, Sinner, you could say that WW2 pulled America out of the depression, but I prefer to see WW2 and an unfortunate event that the american worker(some turned military) was able to handle even after they had suffered through most of the great depression. I think we are just splitting hairs here. Governments and politicians pass acts and make descisions high up on the hill. What I wanna know is who does the actual work. Now I'm not trying to say that running a country is an easy job. I just believe that the average worker is more important to the sucess of a nation in almost every endeavor. So you say the MIC(military industrial complex) carried us out of the depression and through the world war and the cold war after that. I say the American worker. Thats why I was trying to make a distinction between business and people. Of course there is a sort of sybiotic relationship there, but I think the worker would survive without business, but the business would not survive without the worker. All right. No need to fret. Now that I've thrown this thread way off topic, let's get back to the ruling elite fascists. Take it away, Albed. Oh yeah, Sinner. I got the 80% from the wiki on the great depression, but I may have mispoken. There were times during the depression that the number was less than 80%. I was reading the Wiki on the Recession of 1937, and that was where I got that figure. They actually said unemployment "jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938". I rounded up to 20% to get my 80% figure of employment.
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Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. – P.J. O'Rourke None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe A truth that's told with bad intent, Beats all the lies you can invent. - William Blake P2P Consortium Last edited by vernarial : 17-08-07 at 04:46 PM. Reason: forgot something |
16-08-07, 02:03 PM | #16 |
flippin 'em off
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So explain how the "hard working americans" gave themselves jobs.
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16-08-07, 06:33 PM | #17 | |||
Thanks for being with arse
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One needs to understand the bigger picture of what happened back then
What was happening with the Western economies post WW2 was of course going to be fairly complex arrangement of conditions that would shape the flow of money in following decades...as far as I can make out it has always been that the affluent and their workers are a symbiotic relationship that need each other to survive...
What drove the post WW2 western economy did vary but basically: Quote:
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they made lots of babies ,maybe one answer? Quote:
Last edited by multi : 16-08-07 at 06:45 PM. |
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