Bush fatigue, interrupted

[albed]

Yeah a pattern of omission; no names, dates, documents, emails; just a bunch of vague horseshit about "the administration". Much like the ufo freaks make their arguments.


Ever feel skeptical when hard facts are suspiciously absent knife? Or are you just so eager to swallow anything anti-Bush you'll mindlessly accept whatever you're fed?

[daddydirt]

= ???

the Wall Street Journal nails this; just the latest in a neverending list of non-scandals.

Iraq aside, the big political story of the week seems to be that Richard Carmona believes he was gagged, if not bound, by the Bush Administration during his tenure as Surgeon General from 2002-2006. Dr. Carmona made his case before Henry Waxman's never-sleeping House Government Reform and Oversight Committee on Tuesday, and most media outlets played it up.

At the beginning of his tenure as the country's top doctor, he "was still quite politically naive in the ways of the Beltway," Dr. Carmona said. "As I witnessed partisanship and political manipulation, I was astounded and unsure of what I was witnessing . . . [and] whether this was the norm for all Surgeons General." Cue the ominous music.

We hate to ruin a political scandal, but isn't this a tad overwrought as a story line? Let's assume that Bush officials did tell him to keep mum on such issues as embryonic stem cell research and sex education. This is what appointed officials of any Administration are expected to do -- support the policies of an elected President. If Dr. Carmona really thinks that the Surgeon General should be above politics, "naive" is not the first adjective that comes to mind.

Dr. Carmona says he was especially offended that his voice wasn't welcome on matters of "science." He misses a critical distinction: Science may inform policy, but it's no substitute for the political judgments that properly play a role in guiding public policy. In the area of stem cells, for instance, there is no ban on debating the science -- only a question of whether and to what extent it should be publicly funded.

In any case, Dr. Carmona was not an indentured servant. If he disagreed so profoundly with President Bush's policy, he could have resigned. Honorable people do it all the time, and no one should take a job in Washington unless he is prepared to resign to defend his principles. That Dr. Carmona failed to resign over so long a period suggests that his personal moral agony was rather less tortured than he now makes it seem.

Alternatively, the good doctor could have done what some of his predecessors chose to do: Speak up anyway, and face the consequences, such as being fired. C. Everett Koop did that on AIDS during the Reagan Administration and became a hero to the media establishment that had once dismissed him as an anti-abortion zealot. Joycelyn Elders also chose to use her pulpit to endorse creative sex education in public schools, at least until the Clinton Administration asked her to resign.

Either decision would have been more honorable than the one Dr. Carmona chose to indulge -- which is to engage in a late hit on the President who appointed him, and only now that he will pay no personal price and it is politically fashionable to do so.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1184...googlenews_wsj

[malvachat]

So he's not a "lying nutcase" than?
He's just

"quite politically naive in the ways of the Beltway,"

Because he,

"witnessed partisanship and political manipulation, I was astounded and unsure of what I was witnessing . . . [and] whether this was the norm for all Surgeons General."

But of course,

"This is what appointed officials of any Administration are expected to do -- support the policies of an elected President"

So he needed to be,

"more honourable"and less"naive"

Instead of,

"engage in a late hit on the President who appointed him, and only now that he will pay no personal price and it is politically fashionable to do so"


Yes,maybe he should have resigned first,so he paid a,

"personal price"

First ,then speak out.
After all,free speech is alive and well in the states,
but you must pay the price for it.
Shoot the messenger seems to be the norm.
What a strange place that there America is.

[Mazer]

malva, Dr. Carmona is only doing what a lot of people wait to do until after they quit their jobs because in non-European countries people risk dismissal when they openly insult their employers. He could have spoken up at any time but he chose to do so after he got his last paycheck. He would have acted the same way no matter who he was working for, and so would most people, so free speech really isn't at issue here.

[daddydirt]

.

[malvachat]

Originally Posted by Mazer

malva, Dr. Carmona is only doing what a lot of people wait to do until after they quit their jobs because in non-European countries people risk dismissal when they openly insult their employers. He could have spoken up at any time but he chose to do so after he got his last paycheck. He would have acted the same way no matter who he was working for, and so would most people, so free speech really isn't at issue here.

Okay,so why is paying a "personal price"an issue?
He may well be a coward and dishonourable,stayed in the job too long and lots of other things.
It doesn't make him a "lying nutcase"
It's something about these personal attacks all the time instead of addressing the issue.

Free speech in the states died a long time ago.
Along with a few more freedoms.
I don't worry about that here in the UK.Our administration system in this country is so flawed,they never let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.
For example,I have worked all of my life except for a couple of months during the years of TBW"That Bloody Woman"
Now I have four NI numbers and three different tax codes.
This has happened because I did a lot of temporary work a few years back.When I start paying on one code they write and tell me I should be paying another.It gets changed.Then because of the fact I have four different NI numbers I get issued with another tax code.Which when means I pay top rate of tax coz they think I have four jobs.I appeal of course.Everything goes back to normal and I get a tax rebate.
Till next year it all happens again.
I have wrote and phoned at least ten times over the years.This has gone on for six years now.
That is without the fact the house we live in is in three different names.My wife's first husband(left 15 years ago)Her old married name when he left.And now her new married name.
Every year we get council tax bills and rent bills for all three,post for all three from the council and everything else.
To date we have been done 27 times for non-payment.When the debt collectors call we explain and they go away.
Till when,guess what?You got it next year.
This has been happening for the last 14 years and they still can't get it right.
With this sort of thing going on all over the country I don't think we're in danger of a fascist state just yet.

[Sinner]

Originally Posted by malvachat

Free speech in the states died a long time ago.
Along with a few more freedoms.
I don't worry about that here in the UK.

Please provide me with some examples Mal. How and when did Americans lose the right to Free Speech? When did “Free Speech Die in the States?” Also what freedoms have Americans lost? What can they not do now compared to what they could do let us say ten years ago?

Maybe you think Listening in on international phone calls from suspected terrorist is one of these freedoms? Well I don’t know about you but I think National Security trumps suspected terrorist rights to not have their phone calls monitored. I don’t think the calls would be allowed to be used in court for any reason and I don’t think that is the purpose. National Security is. On this subject, you know why I know the first Amendment of the Constitution is alive and well. The America Media sometimes does harm to National Security and the government has not stopped them. The Media reports on how the government is trying to stop terrorist attacks and has provided the enemies information in the past, which was very helpful to them.

Since 9/11, how many terrorist attacks have occurred in the USA and how many have occurred in the UK? Who has a better grip on National Security? I don’t live in the USA but I visit a lot, so what Freedoms have been lost? I have not noticed one. Except Canadians and Americans need a passport now to cross the border. Big deal, National Security again, pretty important.

[albed]

Yeah I'll second that question -since you've made a rare post that wasn't in your usual drunken idiot style I actually read it- what freedoms have I lost? You must be getting "multi-syndrome"; living thousands of miles away from the U.S. but somehow thinking you know what's going on over here better than we do.

[multi]

here is the top ten from the Guardian

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

[pisser]

Originally Posted by albed

"horseshit" "the administration"

That's just about right......