[Ramona_A_Stone]

Originally posted by James Dunnigan, with thoughtful additions by Sinner.
The people who do not want democracy are the Sunni's which is 20% of the population - Saddam was a Sunni as was the Baath Party he ran – They maintained control by murdering thousands of Iraqis a year, and threatening that, and worse, to anyone thinking of resisting. The government countermeasures included kidnapping, torture, mutilation and group punishment. That last measure was one of the most effective. If someone was known, or thought, to be against the government, their family could be arrested, tortured or murdered. Because of this bloody history of brutal ruling techniques, many, inside and outside the Arab world – including you miss silver -, insist that Arabs cannot be ruled as a democracy. The Kurds and Shia Arabs of Iraq disagree with this. But Iraq will be the first real Arab democracy in the region, and the continued brutal Sunni Arab resistance to this puts the new democracy to a harsh test. Because the Sunni’s have murdered so many people they are worried when the Kurds and Shia Arabs take power they will be murdered or worse. Of course a democracy may not work and that could lead to a war much like the American Revolution.

Originally posted by James Dunnigan, with thoughtful additions by Sinner.
There is a War going on in Iraq but it is not the War being reported on CNN. ---The government understands that they will prevail, but are uncertain about how many more people will die from terrorist attacks before Baath and al Qaeda are crushed. The terrorists have allies in the foreign media, who label the terrorists as nationalistic insurgents. The media portrays the terrorists as having some kind of chance of taking over. But with 80 percent of the population (the Kurds and Shia Arabs) dead set against Baath and al Qaeda (for many reasons), and the Sunni Arabs resisting the terror as well, it's difficult to see how anyone with a sense of history, or a knowledge of basic math, can fall for that. The battle against the Iraqi terror is not being reported accurately. One reason is that the American military cannot release information then have about the enemy, as that would let the terrorists know what is known about them. This is a war of information. The terrorists depend on secrecy for protection. They must remain invisible to survive. But bit by bit, the Baath Party and al Qaeda organization has been revealed. And as it is, raids go in and take it apart. Towns and neighborhoods are cleared of terrorists and staffed with police and army bases.---

Now if I was one of those rabid 'conservatives' that frequent the board, I'd probably accuse you of parroting Dunnigan because you have no thoughts of your own, and pretend that that settled the whole issue.

To say that Sunnis "do not want democracy" is just so much BushSpeak, akin to calling them "freedom-hating." I'm not trying to 'defend' the Sunnis, but this kind of gross simplification just isn't realistic.

I'm not one of those people believe that 'Arabs cannot be ruled as a democracy,' but 'ruled as democracy' is an interesting phrase too, and needs to be examined. American's don't think of themselves as 'ruled by democracy' but as participants in democracy, but then we don't have an outside military presence bearing down us that we can accuse of favoring one group or causing one group to dissent altogether. I dare say we'd find that most problematic.

There seems to be many different reasons that a significant number of Iraqis across the board do find it problematic--and they do not seem to be based on a hate or fear of true democracy at all, but rather stem from a suspicion of being manipulated on one hand and a fear for their very lives on the other. People of all affiliations are afraid to even be seen registering to vote while officials seen as compliant with American interests are being assassinated. There are rumors of up to a million Iranian Shiites pouring in to tip the election, and a pretty pervasive feeling that the election of Sistani or other favored Shiites is a foregone conclusion anyway, and will be taken as tantamount to the installation of a puppet, giving many all the more reason to fight on and fight that much harder. Of course the Sunnis are playing that hand, even claiming voting in such an election is a sin, but their boycotts will undermine any pretense of a truly democratic process.

This is an outright clash of theocracies neither of which truly fit into our democratic molds from the outset.

"The Americans have set this up in such a way that a lot is at stake after this election,'' says Juan Cole, a professor of Middle Eastern history at the University of Michigan. "If the Sunnis are grossly underrepresented in this constitutional constituent assembly, it will be set up for a guerrilla war that lasts for decades."

I believe most Americans, especially those so vehemently determined to justify Bush's double-talk, have extremely unrealistic expectations about some poetic outcome of this conflict and the probable picture of a self-governing Iraq beyond it, typified by a belief that this election will represent anything but the most superficial cosmetic change--plastic surgery for a cancer patient.

Unfortunately Bush is still insisting "We have a vital interest in the success of a free Iraq. You see, free societies do not export terror."

In my opinion this is, A: a blatant fallacy and extremely misleading, and B: the exact wrong context in which to frame our involvement, the wrong reason for us to be there. To say we have a vital interest in the success of a free Iraq is only underlining that we will define that success and the parameters of that freedom in our terms, from our point of view and according to our best interests. That message is not doing shit for global security issues, and it's not doing shit for any of the people or parties of Iraq. Of course many will profit from the collective mood for staying long term, but they aren't the Iraqis who want to be free, and they aren't the average American believing they are investing in their own security.