[legion]

Not really up to me to answer but I am bored

Originally Posted by Mazer

You can't take self determination away from a people that never had it in the first place.

Self determination or better the lack of it is not a valid reason within it self to start a war, not even an pre emptive one. If it was the u.s. had to invade Iran, North Korea, the city state Singapore, and even china. Since china invaded Tibet there actually is a legal argument.
Ever wondered why during the first gulf war countries were actually falling over each other to back the U.S. up? Why nobody bitched their asses off whether the U.S. invasion was right or not? Iraq invaded another country therefore Iraq posed a threat to the stability of the region if not the world (oil reserves) daddy Bush went by the book and got the backing and the U.N. resolution he wanted!
To make it even more sad not even the gas attack by Saddam on its own people is a proper reason to attack a country according to international law.

Originally Posted by mazer

I think I've made it clear that the American people didn't need to be defrauded to support the war. A lot of people were against it, sure, but not enough, or else it would never have taken place.

Saying that as long as the majority of the U.S. population wants a war it is a justification to attack any country on this by god-forgotten planet? An interesting opinion indeed!

Originally Posted by mazer

It's a sign of the times, my friend.

Or is it? How many times were U.S. soldiers abroad blown to smithereens by insurgents with car bombs, kidnapped or beheaded before the attack in Iraq?

Originally Posted by mazer

I haven’t been car bombed today, and you know what, I'm not going to get blown up by a terrorist tomorrow either.

True but than again thankfully you are not in harms way or close to it. I seriously belief that U.S. soldiers in Iraq might have a different opinion.

Originally Posted by mazer

Opinion, not fact.

Which he has every right to express but than again you never argued he couldn’t.

Originally Posted by mazer

It may be a scarier place (that's why we call them terrorists), but by and large the world is no more dangerous than it was before.

I believe people in London and Madrid beg to differ.

Originally Posted by mazer

I happen to have a few choice yardsticks right here.
1. The US Army and Marines covered more ground during their invasion faster than any other invading force in history.
2. The civilian to soldier kill ratio is the lowest of any war.
3. It is statistically safer to be an American soldier in Iraq than to live in California, which has roughly the same geographic size and population.
4. Iraqi POWs (soldiers, not terror suspects) have been treated better than American POWs in every part of the world, and those prison guards who do mistreat prisoners are severely punished.
5. The people of Iraq have enjoyed more freedoms during three years of American occupation than any time in the previous two decades.
6. Politicians in Iraq are optimistic about their future and they're up to the challenge.
There are probably more, but it's late and I can't think of any more right now.

1. If the armed forces didn’t dissolve the entire police and armed forces in Iraq in the first place there might be some law and order right now.
2. Meaning??? What exactly???
3. A man tried to cross a river once that statistically was only 2 feet deep on average. Guess what ... he drowned! Statistically I can proof about the most idiotic theory I can shove out of my mouth.
4. true no argument there other than that every great nation is measured by its level of humanity.
5. hmm I think I can dig up enough samples contradicting that one but it is late here too and I really don’t feel like it.
6. Of course they are but since the u.s. state department has their arms so far up their asses that it became kinda hard to say otherwise. Or did you actually expect them to say:”you know what, I think we are in serious shit here. Those who helped me into power also rendered my country in a state anarchy and we know shit what to do about it.”

Originally Posted by mazer

What's the point of giving an answer here? You'll reject any number greater than zero

can’t speak for some else but for myself that number will not be into the tens of thousands. With the passing of time and reaching higher levels of technology people seem more and more reluctant to sacrifice large amount of lives for what ever cause. The combined number of wounded and deaths have reduced significantly over time.
WW2.: 1,078,162
Korean war: 136,935
Vietnam war:311,471
Gulf war: 760

The only reason the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam is/was that the government lost the backing of the American people (which is the only way to force the military might of the U.S. to its knees)
Please note that I used the words pulled out and not lost since the U.S. never lost any major battle in Vietnam and therefore from a military point of view it actually was a success.

Originally Posted by mazer

Victory will be achieved when the Iraqis are able to find their own answers to those questions, just like we're able to determine our own social and economic needs.

I admit that is a tricky one. Before the ousting of Saddam car bombing were at an all time low as were the insurgents attacks. Okay enough sarcasm. That way you are actually laying the fate of an unknown amount of American men and women in the hands of a foreign power for an indefinite amount of time. No one can determine when social and economic needs are met. Some would be happy with medical insurance while others want a new computer system or a new dvd player and we all want an annual increase on our income.

Originally Posted by mazer

So they don't get re-elected. Even if the Republicans loose control of the federal government, that won't erase what has already been accomplished. Their fate may be sealed, but like it or not the political situation in the Middle East cannot be changed by elections on the other side of the Earth. Iraq is on its way to achieving self determination, and now that it's happened ask yourself, "Is this really such a bad thing after all?"

perhaps not, I guess time will tell

Originally Posted by mazer

Even if one does outweigh the other, it doesn't cancel it out. We did some good over there, admit it.

Yeah you did