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Ramona_A_Stone · 14-07-01, 11:10 AM

Yip. Great Topic(s). Now, just because I'm a Mod, I'm going to babble nearly incoherently somewhere near the topic and try to appear that I know what I am talking about, while saying nothing of real value.

I have had some good results recording and mixing bands, but I'm no expert there, I always achieve whatever I achieve with lots of trial and error and a whole-hog 'control freak' approach, even though I'm working without a clue other than my ear and it's different for every situation, and every band's sound. It's a form of delicate psychoacoustic alchemy. As Gaz (who knew!!?? - we thought he was just the Forum Deity trouncing around arbitrarily with Zeus-like impetuousness!) said in the drum thread, and I echo, it's all a matter of tweaking. There's virtually no foolproof approach that will tell you exactly how to mic a particular bass drum, (or kit) with a particular tuning, in a particular ambient space.

It's taken me literally days of working just with the drummer and headphones to achieve something realistically balanced, and going from there to a normal live room full of miked amps is... an art. lol. Placement of all the other sound sources is very significant in miking the drums, tilting a bass amp 12 degrees to the left can have a profound effect for instance. Mic movements of a half an inch, especially slight changes in angle, and slight nudges in eq can produce radically different effects. Plus I've never met two drummers with the same philosophy of mic placement or, in fact who even want to sound the same. So often, you're dealing with a person who may need to alter his (or her) tunings and playing techniques slightly to achieve a sound based on the in your head experience of playing the drums - which is almost impossible to recreate in the same room with its acoustic presence.

(In performance it may not be such a problem, but in recording 'live' bands, I almost always have to argue with drummers about the way they mic/play their cymbals - you can't mic cymbals and then play the hell out of them as if they weren't miked - and the constantly ringing frequencies of cymbals will cloud a mix faster than you can shake a stick at (?) With live sound, unless you're playing Giant Gigs, the final PA is to some degree just going to be an enhancement of acoustic presence - and here I'd say if at all possible, go for creating and maintaining true stereo seperation of the drums into your board, or two channels at least, - use of subtle panning can be very clarifying and create more space in the mix)

Anyway, I think there's a real transition a lot of drummers have to make when they go from being organic amplifiers to having artificial amplification, which ultimately may require more sensitivity, expression and control than flat-out acoustic power - it's a relationship that has to develop.

Here are some links to some rather cursory articles, sprinkled with a few general pearls:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7

And a really extensive article about tuning, with more links:
Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible

I think, too, designating a 'sound person' 'outside' the band is really important for a number of reasons. #1 probably being the fact that player's ears are often so tired of focusing on this alternate world of sound (the mix) that their hearing just becomes more and more selective during the process. You need someone who can 'impartially' think about your overall sound; someone you trust, obviously, and who can be frank. #2 is simply that bands with great sound almost always have a dedicated human sound slave, who is beloved.

As to your question about tweaking one instrument at a time and then in pairs etc, what I've done in the past is exactly that - if possible, the sound person and each musician should pair up in headphones and discuss eq and make detailed notes about the clearest and most desirable natural sound for that individual. Of course, once you're in to the overall mix, your settings will be nothing like these notes... lol - but it's crucial for getting a feel of each mic and each performers dynamic range, and determining and optimizing the usually very small but flexible range of your overall systems power to reproduce. A good sound person doesn't just sit at the board tweaking the faders either... they need to be able to challenge the performer to a degree, to try to be objective for the performers - and at this point there is a transition for the whole band - going from a band that plays great together to one that has great sound often requires subtle shifts in techniques and 'personal sound' that may feel counterintuitive at first hearing. (especially to drummers - Ramona ducks a flying drum stick) Again, the trust you put in someone to do this job, (even someone completely 'unqualified' but who is perceptive and has the enthusiasm to learn, as I've seen work wonders many times) is invaluable. And it should be someone willing and able to know your board, and prepared to to 'redesign' your sound to achieve consistency outside the practice space. Tip: Try not to pick anyone with a German surname. ...Libras and Capricorns are good... Steer clear of Leos.

That's my 2 cents I reckon, offered free of charge during this forum introductory trial offer for a limited time only.

14-07-01, 11:10 AM	#10
Ramona_A_Stone Formal Ball Proof Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 2,948	Yip. Great Topic(s). Now, just because I'm a Mod, I'm going to babble nearly incoherently somewhere near the topic and try to appear that I know what I am talking about, while saying nothing of real value. I have had some good results recording and mixing bands, but I'm no expert there, I always achieve whatever I achieve with lots of trial and error and a whole-hog 'control freak' approach, even though I'm working without a clue other than my ear and it's different for every situation, and every band's sound. It's a form of delicate psychoacoustic alchemy. As Gaz (who knew!!?? - we thought he was just the Forum Deity trouncing around arbitrarily with Zeus-like impetuousness!) said in the drum thread, and I echo, it's all a matter of tweaking. There's virtually no foolproof approach that will tell you exactly how to mic a particular bass drum, (or kit) with a particular tuning, in a particular ambient space. It's taken me literally days of working just with the drummer and headphones to achieve something realistically balanced, and going from there to a normal live room full of miked amps is... an art. lol. Placement of all the other sound sources is very significant in miking the drums, tilting a bass amp 12 degrees to the left can have a profound effect for instance. Mic movements of a half an inch, especially slight changes in angle, and slight nudges in eq can produce radically different effects. Plus I've never met two drummers with the same philosophy of mic placement or, in fact who even want to sound the same. So often, you're dealing with a person who may need to alter his (or her) tunings and playing techniques slightly to achieve a sound based on the in your head experience of playing the drums - which is almost impossible to recreate in the same room with its acoustic presence. (In performance it may not be such a problem, but in recording 'live' bands, I almost always have to argue with drummers about the way they mic/play their cymbals - you can't mic cymbals and then play the hell out of them as if they weren't miked - and the constantly ringing frequencies of cymbals will cloud a mix faster than you can shake a stick at (?) With live sound, unless you're playing Giant Gigs, the final PA is to some degree just going to be an enhancement of acoustic presence - and here I'd say if at all possible, go for creating and maintaining true stereo seperation of the drums into your board, or two channels at least, - use of subtle panning can be very clarifying and create more space in the mix) Anyway, I think there's a real transition a lot of drummers have to make when they go from being organic amplifiers to having artificial amplification, which ultimately may require more sensitivity, expression and control than flat-out acoustic power - it's a relationship that has to develop. Here are some links to some rather cursory articles, sprinkled with a few general pearls: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 And a really extensive article about tuning, with more links: Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible I think, too, designating a 'sound person' 'outside' the band is really important for a number of reasons. #1 probably being the fact that player's ears are often so tired of focusing on this alternate world of sound (the mix) that their hearing just becomes more and more selective during the process. You need someone who can 'impartially' think about your overall sound; someone you trust, obviously, and who can be frank. #2 is simply that bands with great sound almost always have a dedicated human sound slave, who is beloved. As to your question about tweaking one instrument at a time and then in pairs etc, what I've done in the past is exactly that - if possible, the sound person and each musician should pair up in headphones and discuss eq and make detailed notes about the clearest and most desirable natural sound for that individual. Of course, once you're in to the overall mix, your settings will be nothing like these notes... lol - but it's crucial for getting a feel of each mic and each performers dynamic range, and determining and optimizing the usually very small but flexible range of your overall systems power to reproduce. A good sound person doesn't just sit at the board tweaking the faders either... they need to be able to challenge the performer to a degree, to try to be objective for the performers - and at this point there is a transition for the whole band - going from a band that plays great together to one that has great sound often requires subtle shifts in techniques and 'personal sound' that may feel counterintuitive at first hearing. (especially to drummers - Ramona ducks a flying drum stick) Again, the trust you put in someone to do this job, (even someone completely 'unqualified' but who is perceptive and has the enthusiasm to learn, as I've seen work wonders many times) is invaluable. And it should be someone willing and able to know your board, and prepared to to 'redesign' your sound to achieve consistency outside the practice space. Tip: Try not to pick anyone with a German surname. ...Libras and Capricorns are good... Steer clear of Leos. That's my 2 cents I reckon, offered free of charge during this forum introductory trial offer for a limited time only.