[miss_silver]

Originally Posted by Drakonix

Obviously, to you there is no difference.

To me, there is a huge difference.

President Bush is not a follower of Islam, and is therefor not following a "holy book" (the Qur'an) that contains instructions to kill everyone who is not Islam and will not convert to Islam.

You can go to http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ and read what the Qur’an says. The verse I reference as "join us or die" is in chapter nine, verse five (009.005). Chapter nine begins here http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html .

Let's consider the statement "either you are with us or against us when 9/11 happened". Actually, I think it is quite a fair assessment. By now the people that read this board know where both of us stand in that area.

Sorry, but to me "either you are with us or against us when 9/11 happened" is not even closely related to


As for the media (not) calling the situation in Iraq a “civil war”, I’m not sure why using that phrase is so important. Whatever label it is given does not change what is going on.

If I google the keywords “iraq civil war” I get a number of sites (including BBC, CBS) that used the term “civil war” regarding Iraq dating back years ago.

Blaming the current U.S. President for hostilities between religious factions in Iraq is ridiculous. The hostilities or “civil war” between the Kurds/Shiites/Sunnis has been going on long before President Bush (Sr. or Jr.) took office.

Islam’s game plan has not changed over the centuries. The Pope quoted 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who wrote that everything Mohammad brought was evil and inhuman, "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

As usual, you conveniently sidestepped the issue of discussion (Iraq death toll numbers) with a diversion to another subject likely to cause debate.

I did not sidestep

There is a death tool and a big one but who's death are we referring to in this case? the death of US soldiers or the death toll of Iraq population?

11 October 2006, 17:42 GMT 18:42 UK

BBC NEWS
'Huge rise' in Iraqi death tolls
An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university.

The research compares mortality rates before and after the invasion from 47 randomly chosen areas in Iraq.

The figure is considerably higher than estimates by official sources or the number of deaths reported in the media.

It is vigorously disputed by supporters of the war in Iraq, including US President George W Bush.

Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health estimate that the mortality rates have more than doubled since the invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein, causing an average of 500 deaths a day.

I stand by the figure that a lot of innocent people have lost their life... and that troubles me, and it grieves me
President George W Bush

In the past, Mr Bush has put the civilian death toll in Iraq at 30,000, and hours after details of the latest research were published he dismissed the researchers' methodology as "pretty well discredited".

The Johns Hopkins researchers argue their "cluster sample" approach is more reliable than counting dead bodies, given the obstacles preventing more comprehensive fieldwork in the violent and insecure conditions of Iraq.

"I stand by the figure that a lot of innocent people have lost their life... and that troubles me, and it grieves me," Mr Bush told reporters at the White House.

"Six-hundred thousand or whatever they guessed at is just... it's not credible," Mr Bush said.

More

President Bush is not a follower of Islam but he is a follower of the Christian GOD and it's not only Muslims that takes the holy book seriously. I could come up with nasty bible quotes that calls for the killing of those who do not believe in GOD and so on but it is futile to do so now. Muslims can't stop fighting amongst themselves? Try christianity with Catholics and Protestants! Both are from the same religion and both are willing to go extermes because their religion have slight differences. To my knowledge, this hatrid is still very much alive in Ireland and has been throughout history. England slaughters of catholics who did not convert when it separated from the catholic church. The slaughter of protestant in paris on the St-Barthelemy night, I can go on.

The muslims fight amongst themselves for the same reason the cath and protestant, because of minor differences, a shism that happened and separated islam followers in 2 groups, sunnis and chiites.

Long read but I suggest it highly to better understand the many religions of Islam...

BRANCHES OF ISLAM:

The death of Muhammad in Medina provoked a mayor crisis among his followers: The dispute over the leadership resulted in the most important "schism" in Islam: "Sunnis" and "Shiites:

- The Prophet's preference to follow him was Ali, the husband of his daughter, the Egyptian Fatima, and the father of his only surviving grandsons Hasan and Husayn. But, while the family was busy burying the Prophet, the leaders of Medina elected the aging Abu Bakr, the father of the Prophet's favorite wife, as the successor ("caliph"), even before the burial of the Prophet. Ali and his family were dismayed but agreed for the sake of unity, and because Ali was still young... however, after the murder of the third caliph, Ali was invited by the Muslims of Medina to accept the caliphate, with the mayor schism of Islam:

- The "Sunnis", followers of Abu, the majority, with 800 million Muslims.

- The "Shiites", followers of Ali, with 100 million Muslims (Iran, Iraq, Palestine).

Despite the differences in detail and politics, the various branches do accept the basic tenets laid down in the Koran.

1- The "Sunni": 800 million:

The followers of Abu, called "Sunni" because they accept the "sunnas", the oral traditions and interpretations of the Koran after Muhammad's death, called the "sunnas", and later the "Hadiths".

They are usually more liberal.

They belief the "caliph" ("successor" of Muhammad) should always be elected, not conferred by heredity. They claim they are the true followers of the faith, and until 1959 they refuse to recognize the Shiites as true Muslims. They believe in "predestination".

During the Ottoman Turks, the Caliphs were called "Sultans".

2- The "Shiite": 100 million:

The "Shiite ("partisans"), are the followers of Ali, more orthodox and militant, mainly in Iran, Iraq, and Palestine. In 656, Ali and Fatima's son Hussein led a fight against the Sunnis. Hussein was torture and beheaded, and today the Shiites of Iran honor the memory of Hussein's death with an annual procession in which marches in a frenzied demonstration beat and whip themselves with chains and branches.

The "Iman" and "Mahdi" (Messhiah):
Shiites created the office of the "Imam" ("leader" or "guide"), who were infallible, one for each generation, the only source of religious instruction and guidance, and all in direct descendence of Ali. There were 12 Imams since Ali; the last one, the 12th, went into hiding in 940, and he will emerge later to rule the world as "Mahdi" ("Messiah"). For this reason they are also called the "Imamites" or "Twelvers".

- The present "Ayatollahs", ("signs of God") see themselves as joint caretakers of the office of the Imam, until he returns at the end of time. The "Ayatollah Khomeini" claimed that he was a descendant of the 7th Imam, and hence the rightful ruler of the Shiites.

The "Wahhabi":

A small group founded by al-Wahhab in the eighteenth century, but it was the primary force in the creation of the state of Saudi Arabia in 1932, the country of the cities of Mecca and Medina, and from them, the Wahhabi have influenced Muslims throughout the world who go into the pilgrimage to Mecca.

They are the Puritans of the Muslims, with the most strict, severely enforced moral standard of conduct, and their call for a pure Islam regulated by a literal interpretation of the Koran.

For them, it is a polytheism to visit the graves of the saints, and they are against observance of the feast of the Birth of the Prophet... and they discourage such Western innovations as cinema and dancing.
The Wahhabis: The Fanatical Reformists of Modern Islam


The Kharijites - the Early Seceders of Islam:

The first major sect that appeared in the history of Islam was made up of the Khawarij or Kharijites as they are known to us. The word means "those who go out", that is, seceders. They appeared as a separate group after the Battle of Siffin when Ali submitted his conflict with Mu'awiyah to arbitration. Although his followers had unanimously influenced him into this course of action, a section broke away afterwards, claiming that no caliph of Allah should submit the cause of God to the discretion of man. This group thus became the nucleus of the Kharijite movement in Islam, a dogmatic and fanatical sect which plagued Iraq for many years.
This group did not last long, however, (mercifully for the peace-loving Muslim communities in Iraq) but it did provide an example which was to be followed in later centuries by other sects, in particular the Wahbabis. http://answering-islam.org.uk/Gilchrist/Vol1/9d.html


The "Ismailis":

In the eight century a group of Shiites created a division on the account of who would be the rightful seventh Imam at the death of the sixth Imam who had 2 sons: They followed the older brother, Ismail, who died as a child, and so, they are called the "Ismailis" or "Seveners".

They are in parts of India, Egypt, and the rulers of Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia, and Bahrain.

They believe that incarnations of God in the form of new Imams will continue throughout time

There are different groups of Ismailis:

The "Ismaili Druze"
About 700,000, believe that the Fatimid leader al-Hakim of Egypt was God. They meet on Thursdays, instead of Fridays, and they have monogamous marriages. They are in Lebanon, Syria, and Israel, trying to have an independent state.

The Ismaili "Hashshashin" or "Assassins", used the drug hashish to get exited, and became famous for their practice of seizing Crusader forts and assassinating Christians. Today, known as "Khojas" or "Mawlas" in Bombay, India, and parts of Iran, Syria, and Zanzibar.
I had a good experience with one of them. When I went to Egypt with my wife, Hank was our taxi-driver for a week, a great one, he brought us to incredible places. The last day he told me: "You are lucky this didn't happened 5 years ago, because at that time I was an Assassin, and my job was to kill Christians".

The Sufi ("mystic", "woolen robes"):

It is a mystic group responsible for large scale conversion of Hindus and Africans into Islam.

One founder was Ahmad al-Qadiana, who lived in Cairo in the eighth century and claimed to be an incarnation of Allah.

The "Whirling Derisshes":

The greatest of the Sufi poets is "Meluana Celadin Rumi" (1207-73), from Turkey, whose work, "Masvani", is considered second only to the Koran, and it was Rumi who advocated and influenced the development of the "whirling dervishes", twirl dancing around the master, as a means of achieving oneness with God... it requires 1,001 hours to master the dance, once secret, now performed openly.

They used to retreat to the desert where they live as wandering ascetics, abstaining from all worldly pleasures and dressing in woolen robes, "sufis"... and there are several "orders", like the Christian monastic orders.

Their "primary goal", is to rid the souls of self-love and replace it with God-love. The "ego" aspect of human nature must be eradicated if the path of salvation is to be achieved.

The "Sufi Way", has 7 stages: Repentance, abstinence from worldly pleasures, detachment or isolation from the world, solitude, poverty, patience, and self-surrender to God. The 7-path program is completed when "ego" leaves and "divine love" enters the human soul.

The "Sufi Meditation", prescribes for concentration to touch 5 centers of the body: The heart; then the spirit center found in the heart; then the secret center between the heart and the spirit center; then the forehead, seat of the mysteries; and finally the brain, the deeply hidden source of mystery.

"Worship practices" are meditating, praying with songs and dances, gyrating movements of the body... "a master" will lead the devout to mystical trances... illumination comes in the form of ecstatic dancing, as may be practiced by the "whirling dervishes". The wild dancing represents the movements of the planets... and when the dancer collapses in a trance, enters into God.

Eventually the dervish becomes a "perfect man" who can teach others God's truth.

Among the Sufis, the most holy men become saints and their tombs become shrines to which pilgrims go to receive divine blessings.

The modern "work" of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, to know "thyself", is mostly based in Sufi Mysticism, even with the "Whirling dervish-type dances".

Baha'ism:

A religion founded by "Baha' U'llah" ("Mirza Husayn Ali") in 1863 in Iran, with the desire "to unite mankind into one religion kingdom".

Baha' claimed to be the "Madhi" ("Messiah") expected by Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists... There are today 5 million Baha'is in 205 countries; 100,000 in he USA, with the main temple and headquarters in Wilmette, Illinois.

In more than 100 books, Baha' proclaims that "the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens", and the "oneness of humanity, oneness of religion, oneness of God"... with "12 principles", including the independent search for truth, the unity of all religions, a universal language, a world confederacy of nations, a world court, work as worship, abolition of welth and poverty, establishment of world peace...

In 1863 Baha' already proclaimed that "mankind is headed toward a social and economic cataclysm... and out of this tragedy a "golden age" will dawn, and Baha'is will be the only ones prepared to rule this new world order"...

... His imminent prophecies, and his noble and altruistic goals have not been fulfilled in 1997.

Most leaders of the major religions reject Baha'is teaching, doctrines, and practices: Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims, who consider Baha' an heretic.

In Iran, the country of Baha, members of the Baha'i faith are severely persecuted and often sentenced to death for "heresy", and they destroyed the "House of Bab" in Shiraz, the Baha'is holiest shrine.

The "practices", are mostly Muslim: To pray at certain times during the day, and encourage to make at least one pilgrimage to their own Mecca: The temple in the city of "Ak'ka", near Haifa, Israel, where Baha' died and was buried, and is the actual world headquarters of the Baha'is.

"Number 9", is their symbol of unity and stands for the 9 manifestations of God to Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Hare Krishna, Bab, and Baha'... Bab was the precursor of Baha', like another John the Baptist. Their temples have 9 sides, 9 pillars, 9 gates, 9 fountains.

- For the Muslims, it is a heresy to have another prophet after Muhammad...
- For the Christians, it is a heresy to rob Christ of his incarnate deity, and to reject his atonement on the Cross.


In the USA: "Black Muslims":

In many nations there are groups of Muslims to fight for the specific problems of that nation, making the number of Muslim Denominations larger than those of Christianity.

In the USA, one of these is the "Nation of Islam" or "Black Muslims", started by Timothy Drew in 1913, and founded by Wallace Fard Muhammad, who established a mosque in Detroit in 1931, and claimed to be Allah incarnated.

The chief developer of the movement was "Elijah Muhammad", assistant of Fard. "Black men" were enjoined to give up Christianity, because they were seen as destined by Allah to assume cultural and political leadership of the Earth. The white race was conceived of as a race of devils whose time of reign was coming to an end. They bought thousands of acres, to promote self-help enterprises. Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are Black Muslims.

His most prominent disciple was "Malcolm X", who broke with the group because of its separatists views, before his assassination in 1965, forming the "American Muslim Mission".

A splinter group under "Louis Farrakhan", based in New York, retains the name "Nation of Islam".

Link

By reading this, I learnt a lot tonight about Islam, it's the same as christianity or no better, both advocate violence in their books and both are disfunctionnal. Both started from one single root, one was Jesus, the other one Mohammet and both found a way to fuck up and devide and split again. Those hostilities that are going about for a long time as you mentionned have the same stench as the tension that christianity still suffer to this day because of the so many branches/aspect of it. They all Follow christ teaching but in some weird way, they found a way to make it to their own liking as if the true message wasn't enough.

Islam is no different than christianity and if you want to go on a quote war, I will comply.

If I google the keywords “iraq civil war” I get a number of sites (including BBC, CBS) that used the term “civil war” regarding Iraq dating back years ago.

Think again and do google it...http://www.google.ca/search?q=civil+...en-US:official

Poll: Nearly two-thirds of Americans say Iraq in civil war
POSTED: 4:43 p.m. EDT, September 28, 2006

(CNN) -- Nearly two-thirds of Americans surveyed consider Iraq to be in a civil war, a CNN poll said Thursday, and more people view the three major architects of the U.S.-led operation there unfavorably than favorably.

Iraq, particularly its capital, Baghdad, has endured months of Sunni-Shiite sectarian killings, and debate has simmered over whether the country has or has not entered into a full-blown or low-grade civil war.

Asked whether Iraq is "currently engaged in a civil war," 65 percent of the poll's respondents said "yes," and 29 percent answered "no." By comparison, a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll in April found 56 percent of the respondents believed Iraq was in a civil war, while 33 percent disagreed. (Read full poll results - PDF)

The poll found that most Americans polled -- 60 percent -- said they have a clear idea of what the United States is fighting for in Iraq, while 39 percent said they did not...

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What Next?

By Daniel L. Byman and Kenneth M. Pollack
Sunday, August 20, 2006; Page B01

The debate is over: By any definition, Iraq is in a state of civil war. Indeed, the only thing standing between Iraq and a descent into total Bosnia-like devastation is 135,000 U.S. troops -- and even they are merely slowing the fall. The internecine conflict could easily spiral into one that threatens not only Iraq but also its neighbors throughout the oil-rich Persian Gulf region with instability, turmoil and war.

The consequences of an all-out civil war in Iraq could be dire. Considering the experiences of recent such conflicts, hundreds of thousands of people may die. Refugees and displaced people could number in the millions. And with Iraqi insurgents, militias and organized crime rings wreaking havoc on Iraq's oil infrastructure, a full-scale civil war could send global oil prices soaring even higher.

However, the greatest threat that the United States would face from civil war in Iraq is from the spillover -- the burdens, the instability, the copycat secession attempts and even the follow-on wars that could emerge in neighboring countries. Welcome to the new "new Middle East" -- a region where civil wars could follow one after another, like so many Cold War dominoes.

And unlike communism, these dominoes may actually fall...

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I found those on the first google page. Civil war or secterian violence, still a war about ideology.

I cannot blame Prez Bush for the violence over Iraq and it would be foolish to do so but I cannot help feeling scared when your leader says that his action are dictated by GOD...

Published on Friday, October 7, 2005 by The Independent
Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

The President made the assertion during his first meeting with Palestinian leaders in June 2003, according to a BBC series which will be broadcast this month.

The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Abbas remembers how the US President told him he had a "moral and religious obligation" to act. The White House has refused to comment on what it terms a private conversation. But the BBC account is anything but implausible, given how throughout his presidency Mr Bush, a born-again Christian, has never hidden the importance of his faith.

From the outset he has couched the "global war on terror" in quasi-religious terms, as a struggle between good and evil. Al-Qa'ida terrorists are routinely described as evil-doers. For Mr Bush, the invasion of Iraq has always been part of the struggle against terrorism, and he appears to see himself as the executor of the divine will...

Dude, i'm not american but I live 45 mins drive from the border and that is way too close for comfort IMO when I hear rant like that from your elected leader. Bush also have a religious motive for going to war and this is as bad as what ever verse quoted in the Quaran.

The Iraqie death toll is much higher than the soldiers who lost their lives or the one who perished on 9/11 combined together.

So, Is an Iraqie's life is worth less than an american one? I'd like an answer on that one.

Oh, the true quote BTW was, either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. I really appriciated being labeled a terrorrists that day, really gave me a warm fuzzy feeling for the guy