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-   -   The Illegal Immigration thing (http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/showthread.php?t=22585)

theknife 29-04-06 06:44 PM

illegal immigrants are an essential component of the economy and deporting 12 million people is physically and politically impossible. call it a guest worker program or amnesty or whatever - might as well do it and get it over with.

Mazer 29-04-06 06:52 PM

The mention of the seven year wait period and sponsorship reminds me very much of the endentured servitude most Americans' ancestors endured to earn their place in this land. It used to be that wealthy land owners would 'invest' in human capital by paying immigrants' way to the colonies and enslaving them for seven years before rewarding them with a little land and a little money. Endentured servants did this willingly. The result was a nation of staunch individualists who were able to liberate themselves from the rule of England despite their economic depression, their occupation by British troops, and their under supplied armies. They won because the United States is not just a nation of immigrants, it's a nation of the best and brighest immigrants the world had to offer; the product of a cultural eugenics movement, though nobody really understood that at the time it was going on.

I ask this question: if a seven year sponsorship for resident aliens allowed the thirteen American colonies to defeat and eventually replace Britain as the world's superpower, wouldn't it be wise to follow the same practices today?

Hegemonic 29-04-06 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknife
illegal immigrants are an essential component of the economy and deporting 12 million people is physically and politically impossible. call it a guest worker program or amnesty or whatever - might as well do it and get it over with.

Is this just a straw man or has someone actually advocated the deportation of 12 million illegal immigrants?

albed 29-04-06 07:30 PM

It sounds just as phony as the claim that it's somehow impossible to deport 12 million criminals. I'm not sure how many are put into prison each year but it must be in the millions so people saying removing 12 million is impossible without any explanation why just reeks of bullshit.


Anyway if the U.S. government just starts imprisoning the criminals who employ illegal immigrants then the illegals would start packing and leaving on their own.


The "essential component of the economy" for theknife is probably his weed supply. :BL:

dumwaldo 30-04-06 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albed
So you're comparing the immigration of a century ago with the current to prove you're ignorant? That makes sense.



I think your hippie history class has misinformed you. Native americans never built a country and they were fighting, stealing, enslaving and killing each other long before europeans came over to join the fray.

So it would be OK for the goverment to come along and take away your home and property because your family fights inside the house?

Double standards are great to justify antisocial behaviour but it doesn't change the fact that it is hypocritical.

Just one question for you guys. How many illegal immigrants have you known in your life?

I have tyo ask because you people talk like they are a commodity. These are PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams the same as us. These are PEOPLE that are often caught up in a system that does not want to grant them citizenship.

BTW
Indentured servitude (see also slavery) ended a LONG time ago. As it should have.

Mazer 30-04-06 08:33 AM

I wasn't advocating voluntary slavery, I was illustrating its positive effect on the gene pool. But I don't see anything wrong with making immigrants work to earn the right to become Americans. It needs to be proved on a case-by-case basis whether immigrants belong here. A lot of them do deserve the chance to make it here, but you know what, a lot of them don't. Hopes and dreams alone are not enough to qualify any immigrant for citizenship.

Hegemonic 30-04-06 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumwaldo

I have tyo ask because you people talk like they are a commodity. These are PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams the same as us. These are PEOPLE that are often caught up in a system that does not want to grant them citizenship.

Imagine that, not wanting to reward PEOPLE that break our laws! What is this country coming to!??!?!

albed 30-04-06 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumwaldo
Just one question for you guys. How many illegal immigrants have you known in your life?

I have tyo ask because you people talk like they are a commodity. These are PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams the same as us. These are PEOPLE that are often caught up in a system that does not want to grant them citizenship.

I've known a number of criminals and of course they are P-E-O-P-L-E trying to support themselves and make a better life through car theft, burglery, drug dealing, etc. but they get caught up in a system that does not want to grant them the freedom to break the laws our society is based on.

And that's the way it should be.

dumwaldo 01-05-06 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albed
I've known a number of criminals and of course they are P-E-O-P-L-E trying to support themselves and make a better life through car theft, burglery, drug dealing, etc. but they get caught up in a system that does not want to grant them the freedom to break the laws our society is based on.

And that's the way it should be.

Are you really that stupid or are you just being obstinant and sarcastic?

theknife 01-05-06 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumwaldo
Are you really that stupid or are you just being obstinant and sarcastic?

bingo :tu:

albed 01-05-06 11:26 AM

I don't think dumwaldo's even smart enough to recognize a stupid person.


I'm smart enough to realize there are some 12 million criminals who've infiltrated the U.S.; exploiting its freedom, breaking its laws, subverting its institutions and fragmenting its society, and I don't think that's beneficial in any way.


Arguments like; 'they are people with hopes and dreams' and 'bingo' really do show stupidity though.

Mazer 01-05-06 05:41 PM

I think we're all capable of making better arguments than these, guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumwaldo
You're stupid!

Quote:

Originally Posted by albed
No, you're stupid!

It's like listening to eight-year-olds. When I was in second grade the best of the political rhetoric in my class went something like this: my opponents would say, "Bush is mush," and I'd rebutt, "Oh yeah, well Dukakis is kah-kah." I'd like to think that since the '88 elections the political discussions I've involved myself in have been more mature, but sadly I find myself here in the NU Political Asylum witnessing the same old pissing contest.

albed 01-05-06 05:47 PM

...and contributing nothing except the fictionalized versions of history you've become notorious for.

multi 01-05-06 06:02 PM

Quote:

smart enough to realize there are some 12 million criminals who've infiltrated the U.S.; exploiting its freedom, breaking its laws, subverting its institutions and fragmenting its society
typical rantings of a paranoid xenophobe :BL:


Quote:

THE Ten Commandments of Artless Argument

1) Regardless of the issue ---- make sure you bring up your views on abortion, capital punishment, Christianity, and the political party you least like, regularly. Make sure your use the terms "wrong", "evil", "sinful" and "false" in describing views that differ from your particular beliefs. Try to work in the terms "blinded" or "deluded".

2) Depending on YOUR orientation refer to your opponents in arguments (or debates that hold the promise of becoming arguments) as facists or communists as often as possible. Suggest that their views parallel those held in Nazi Germany or of Stalinist USSR at least once.

3) Point out the shortcomings of the opposite gender. Using tasteless jokes that you ascribe to others is a favorite ploy. If your opponent is of the same sex ---- cast doubt on their sexual orientation.

4) When you've managed to get a good heated exchange going try to score points by using a word that will drive your opponent to the dictionary. Mock any attempts on their part to do the same. If possible humiliate them and react to attacks on your arguments with ironic references to misspellings, ill-conceived sentence construction, or inappropriate word usage.

5) If you make an error, never apologize. Blame it on a technical difficulty or on your opponent's mischaracterization of your argument.

6) When inspired, make sure you word your attacks and counterattacks so that you leave no opening for your adversary to capitulate to your view except in disgrace. Try to make certain that every avenue of response is a path of shame. Phrases like "only a idiot or a scumbag would argue that ..." are very helpful.

7) If you start to slip in an argument attack the person. It's most helpful to know something personal about them so that your ad hominems point out both academic/professional defects and their deficiencies as a human.

8) If someone levels an attack upon you, respond that in their reliance on ad hominem attacks the argument has deteriorated to a level that no longer warrants your participation. This can be a winning blow if played properly. Be subtle here, and clever; try to convey the sense of your opponent as dim-witted, ethically degenerate, desperate, and outmanuevered by your overwhelming intellectual superiority. The real joy here is that you can neatly do away with any respect due your opponent, slander his character, lacerate his pride, and, if done properly and with elan, simultaneously represent yourself as a man or woman whose ethics and moral sensitivity make it impossible for you to do what you just did. This one is a real gem -- and when executed gracefully -- really an art form.

8) When you face a loss, construct a "straw man" argument either by taking your opponets words out of context or by changing the issue. Never lose ---- change the issue. If your opponent has the facts on thier side, argue that facts don't constitute scholarship and understanding, and might even be a sign that one has not yet come to the level of understanding at all. Claim that computers store facts and that real scholarship is the sign of being able to understand and seeing the deeper connections.

9) Remember that you are always right. No matter what forces are marshalled against you, no matter how reasonable, humble, or generous, don't give an inch, don't be swayed. You are always right. It's the other side that caused this ruckus and keeps it going.

10) Always insist on the last word. The only honorable finish is unconditional capitulation by your adversaries or their defeated silence.

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/argue.htm
I believe 'they are people with hopes and dreams' was a clearly a statement and not an argument in itself.
so if you would care to make some sense, please do.

fluffyfluff1 02-05-06 10:26 AM

I think Teddy Roosevelt said it best "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation of all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities."

floydian slip 02-05-06 11:57 AM

Its our corporate governments fault for allowing this to happen. The businesses that closed yesterday due to labor shortages should be prosecuted.

What really pisses me off is having to take my shoes off in the airport when millions of people every year just walk across the border. Homeland Security is a bad fucking joke.

Im not mad at the illegals for coming here, Im mad at our goverment for letting it happen.

At least those illegals know how to organize and march, something we dont know how to do anymore because we are so polarized.

albed 27-05-06 05:05 PM

WTF does marching around do? If you want the government to do something you have to put up money and votes. Marching is just something for the media to videotape and show on TV.

multi 27-05-06 11:49 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha

in 1930 it was a peacful protest march that contributed to the independance of India

ONEMANBANNED 02-06-06 03:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
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miss_silver 02-06-06 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEMANBANNED
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Good one!


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