omg these soldiers r so fu**ed
 

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...133250,00.html

:( :o :no:

The Brits are once again following America's lead. British soldiers are also under investigation for prisoner abuse in Iraq.

No body is following no body's lead between the us and uk. They are both in the same hamper or basket. Ever since they us/uk struck oil in Iraq, they've been at it since then. It was no big choice or surprise for the uk to support 100% the iraquie war since they will benefit from it aswell.

As for the prisoners abuse, read it this morning b4 going out and trust me, no brekkie could fill my stomach after reading this totally discusting news:m:

What truly amaze me is that it was CBS who broadcasted the news..., thought it would been snuffed out even before they would consider to air it.

we have libiya oil ass a backup ;)

So i've heard.

Now, now.

Who was it who moved the thread?

Gaz or tg;)

SHAME OF ABUSE BY BRIT TROOPS

May 1 2004


Rogue British troops batter Iraqis in mockery of bid to win over people

By Paul Byrne


A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.

The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.

After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.


The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.

Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.

Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."

No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."

The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.

Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks.

He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."

Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.

Soldier A said:

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.

"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.

Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.




BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect

You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.

"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.

I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.

"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.

After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.

Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."

Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.


"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.

He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.

The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.

Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.

"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.

"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."

Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.

One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.

"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.

"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."

The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."

1
URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating.

2
GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth

3
BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on

This is truly sick:m:

After the seige of falluja and this, the iraqie are bound to mistrust if not hate coalition forces.

i hate to be a spoilsport

but these pics can all be staged

why the hoods?

why didn't dude just unclip the wires off his hands and beat the shit out of someone or die trying?

i had friends in high school that pissed on other friends that got too drunk!!?

i might be conspiracy minded or jaded...BUT!! if i caught someone that was trying to KILL ME....i think i'd tie them up and piss on them too!!

oddly, i'm anti war in iraq or anywhere

and goddammit, that reminds me,.... i need to get gas in the morning...i'm on E!

:PO:

my point....the timing of this photo was incredible (as in hardly credible)

contact with groin...no blur...action photo!? and that's a nice clean iraqi lookin t-shirt!!

looks posed to me.....could be one frame of many speed shutter shots, i guess!? ...nice wood floor, the curtains have to go though

that pic of the guy on the box just looks fake....sorry

No need to apologize Norm. I doubt someone would be standing while getting shock treatment.

Most of the U.S. pics look like a frat hazing but everyone's screaming torture. Sounds like propaganda to me.

seems there is some inconsistencies in the british photos..
(no link ..something i heard briefly on a news update)

..if they are faked they have done a lot of damage still..because if even if they were proven fake..most ppl over there wouldnt believe it..

albed, i believe the guy on the box was told if he fell off the box he would be electrocuted

i don't think he's being shocked

regardless, why two wires? one would be enough, no? what's that third loose wire hanging? why is he holding his arms out?

the whole thing looks cheesy

at least noone has used the word "atrocities" yet :hmm:

i imagine Kerry will let the publy outcry dampen a bit before incorporating it into his campaign

or maybe there is the risk of appearing to be a "one trick pony"

government BAD!!

in the news this morning :D

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...tos/index.html

i knew that shirt didn't look right ;);)

You're quite right.

There are too many other inconsistancies.

The hat the soldier is wearing was never issued to British Soldiers in Iraq.

The uniform isn't right, there are no flashes on it, the rifle has no strap or radio button. In fact that model of rifle wasn't issued to British soldiers either. The soldier is not wearing his webbing correctly which is something even the most basic recruit has drummed into them from day one basic training, and anyone incapable of wearing the uniform correctly wasn't deployed: they are still in barracks.

The vehicle seen was never sent to Iraq at all, as it can't run on fuel available in Iraq.

If the shot taken when the "soldier" strikes the "prisoner" in the groin is allegedly after several hours of horrific abuse, then why is the shirt so clean? Don't Iraqis with busted faces bleed at all? I know when anyone gets a Saturday night smack in the face, the blood gets everywhere, especially all over the front of a nice white shirt. So why does this guy still have a clean shirt, no scraped knees and no visible bruises?

I think it's staged, and I also have my doubts about the American lot, too.

I think someone is trying to make a fast buck here.

Here's a good way to get to the truth. Promise people money if they file claims of torture. I'm sure that'll keep 'em honest.

http://news.amnesty.org/library/Inde...pen&of=ENG-IRQ
Amnesty International is calling for investigations into alleged abuses by Coalition Forces..... In addition reparation, including compensation, must be paid to the victims or to their families.

The damage is done, It really does not matter if the photos are fake or real to people in Iraq and the Middle East who want the US and British Soldiers out.



SOLDIERS WHO BATTLE WITH PRESSURE

By Steve Mckenzie



IN armies all over the world down through history, there are records of abuses by soldiers.

And the allegations against US and British troops in Iraq are an awful public relations disaster for the Coalition.

But it seems to me the acts have not been systematic or pre-planned. The pressures of war and modern soldiering should take some of the blame.

They cannot just be a front-line shock troop but also a police officer, prison warder or even a social worker.

Pilots are trained to blow up buildings full of people, then have to turn their hand to delivering relief aid.

In Iraq, British and US forces were expected to overcome Saddam Hussein's army quickly, then take onWar expert PROFESSOR JIM WYLLIE of Aberdeen University examines the situations that can harden soldiers to crueltya role of maintaining civil order. The Americans have been criticised for the way they have handled flashpoints Fallujah and Najaf.

It has been said they should take a leaf out of the way the British are handling Basra, using their experiences in Northern Ireland.

But Ulster had Bloody Sunday and the shoot-to-kill controversies.

If there is any solace to be had, it is that our media has the freedom to make us face up to these allegations.

Watching the Iraq War portrayed on television is somewhat like watching an old black & white western movie. The cowboys move into Indian territory take their land and when the Indians fight back the cowboys call the Indians savages...

In Iraq the cowboys take over the country and when the Iraqis fight back the cowboys call the Iraqis terrorists. America still has a cowboy mentality and a belief that the most guns and the best gunslingers win and it may be true, unfortunately it may be after many cowboys are dead. This is especially true after the disgusting photos emerged showing American soldiers committing war crimes against their prisoners in Saddam's Abu Ghraib prison; make no mistake, they were war crimes and it was not just a few soldiers going too far. Reports allege army intelligence officers, CIA agents and private contractors along with the pictured individuals abused and even killed prisoners. The actions of these individuals have set back the Iraq War so far it may never be a winnable; at least under the present leadership, if you can call it leadership...

Remember when American soldiers were captured by Saddam's military? I still remember the scared look on Shashana Johnson's face as she answered questions to the interviewer. We were outraged; showing prisoners on videos and in photos was a violation of the Geneva Convention. Are we still so concerned about the Geneva Convention?

Now we have pictures showing American soldiers sexually abusing Iraqi prisoners, making them get naked and pose in sexual positions, attaching electrical wire to them, imagine if the Iraqi military had done that to Shashana Johnson and her fellow American prisoners. We would have been so outraged that we would have wanted to kill all Iraqis. So you can imagine how the Iraqis and all Arabs must feel seeing pictures of Iraqi prisoners being tortured by patriotic American soldiers with smiles on their faces. So much for winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqis...

The actions of those Americans in Abu Ghraib prison have intensified the Arab anger, the war and the danger to all American soldiers in Iraq. Iraqis I saw interviewed on television compared President Bush to Saddam. They don't believe the American government and they don't believe Bush and why should they? They were told that America was there to liberate them from Saddam and that things would be different but they see Abu Ghraib prison still torturing people just like under Saddam and the only difference is it is the Americans doing the torturing. This is a huge debacle. You can claim all you want that it was a few bad soldiers but if the situation was reversed and Saddam claimed it was a few bad soldiers that tortured Americans, would you believe him? I doubt it and I doubt Iraqis will believe the American claim. Which means the war will intensify with little chance of stability in Iraq and all because of a little good-natured torture...

What should happen to those that took part in the torture? Is a court marshal enough? If CIA agents and private contractors did participate in the abuse what should happen to them? Should they face a war tribunal? Iraqi leaders have set up a tribunal of judges and prosecutors to try Saddam and other members of his Baathist regime, why not turn over the CIA agents and private contractors that participated in the torture to them, after all the war crimes happened in their country. What if the interim government that America hands over power to on June 30 asks to have them extradited would the U.S. comply or would they shield war criminals if the war criminals were Americans? This opens up a whole can of worms. All the while American soldiers will be taking more shots and bombs from mad Iraqis...

Like it or not as commander and chief Bush is the face of the U.S. military and its occupation. When it goes well, Iraqis love him, when it goes bad, they hate him; right now it is going bad, very bad. When torture happened under Saddam, Iraqis blamed Saddam, now torture has happened under Bush and Iraqis blame Bush. With torture on Bush's Iraqi resume, American troops will never win in Iraq; they will take the punishment for the misdeeds of a few ignorant soldiers. The only possible way to win the Iraq war now is to put a new face on it. A new president whether John Kerry, John McCain or whoever could tell the Iraqis and the world that the mistakes of the previous administration will be corrected. A new president could approach the United Nations with an offering to join the treaties that Bush reneged on, such as the Kyoto treaty and the Antiballistic Missile Treaty if the United Nations or its member nations helped both financially and militarily in Iraq. Bush doesn't get anything of substance from the United Nations because he doesn't offer anything in return. A new president could wipe the slate clean and bring in foreign troops to backup the U.S. soldiers. All Bush can do is shuffle the same tired troops; he offers nothing to the countries of the world and so he gets nothing. With Bush all America can expect is a worsening condition in Iraq, more casualties and little help from the world community. A new president could do wonders or as they say in the old black & white western movies, it's time for a new sheriff...

this is horrible....
as i usually dont get involved in political threads, i have to add to this one! and i dont want to go too far off topic but.....
i have alot of vietnam friends here where i live, and they have told me stories of some of the things they have seen and done. which if you have heard these stories, you would cry, on some of the things done, on both sides!
so i am looking at this topic, and im looking at it from 2 angles.
i see alot of what US and UK soldiers have done, but, i really done see alot of what the Iraq soldier has done to our guys, im sure it is just as bad, if not worse!

any reports you get from the government or the news, doesnt really tell the whole story!

i hope some of this makes sense!

this is also pretty freaking horrible...and it is yet again another thing in the 'war on terror' that will only intensify hatred towards the west ...maybe they are trying to draw them out by provocation
isreali style..

They should be careful though. If the muslims hate westerners too much they might hijack airliners and ram them into skyscrapers.:er:

U think this can't happen to u here in the USA?

Power corrupts, and if you wanna be a cop, u realy do enjoy the games.

I can't believe anyyone is surprised about this.




How come nobody has said, like they usually do;

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY, IF YOU AREN'T GUILTY?

lets hope the US never has to actualy invade turkey
 

...backwoods or backwards...???

backwoods


Rednecks.......

don get too excited, IT's just a thought....
 

This fuc'n with the Iraqie prisoners is looking bad.

Hate to say it, but it seems a gay thing, like as in 'homos'. :uu:

The general who ran the joint sure looked to be a dyketype. It happened on the nite shift and nobody cared.

Maybe gays (?) should not be allowed in the armed service if this is what happens..

She's quite a looker!

Re: don get too excited, IT's just a thought....
 

Although the torture is somewhat homo-erotic, I suspect that those involved are not homosexual. Quite the opposite actually. Most of the true-blue gay men I know, couldn't be that cruel. Subjective, I know, but probably accurate.

Re: Re: don get too excited, IT's just a thought....
 

Actually, I agree.

What we are seeing on film is a power trip by our ego hungry cops who feel they can abuse whoever they want with even less oversight than they get here.

If this wasn't filmed nothing would have come of it.

Re: Re: Re: don get too excited, IT's just a thought....
 

this is a bit of a first in history changing events brought on by pocket personal digital devices...
as horrendous as it is..
someone one was found to have a screen saver of these images on one gov/army computer or some such stuff..

so has anyone seen this documentry
on these Taliban prisoners of war suffocated in containers and shot in the desert under the watch of American troops?
tourture is one thing massacre is another..

Re: Re: Re: Re: iTourture
 

yeh this would be right..
 

Halliburton Pulling the Plug on GI Communications

A week after a scandal broke involving photos of American troops torturing Iraqi prisoners, Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown, & Root is pulling the plug on private electronic communications with the folks back home, apparently at the request of the Department of Defence. See, for example, this note from military blogger ginmar:
here

(some choice comments there as well..)

Good ole Ann....



RANTEL: . . .What is your general take on all of this [Abu Ghraib]?

COULTER: Well, the point I just made on Hannity & Colmes--which no one has been making--is that this is yet another lesson in why women shouldn't be in the military.

RANTEL: Oh, really? You're bringing this up? It's funny because somebody mentioned that and I kind of pooh-poohed it. So tell me more.

COULTER: Well, you can't avoid the fact that there are a disproportionate number of women involved, for one thing, in the abuse photos. It was a girl general who was in charge of running our Iraqi prison. And, you know, for one thing, I'm a little disappointed in Rumsfeld--he allows the greatest fighting force on the face of the globe to have girl generals--what are we doing with girl generals? But I think as a general matter, besides the fact that women don't have the physical abilities to do the training exercises while carrying even a medium-size backpack, women are more vicious than men.

RANTEL: Really?

COULTER: These are a few, you know, I mean, in general, these abuse photos are manifestly a few bad apples in an overwhelmingly honorable military. I don't know if you remember, but back during the Afghanistan war--and that was even the war that liberals pretended to support--our military was trained how to bury the dead so that their heads were facing Mecca. That's an incredibly honorable thing to do--and, by the way, it's something that doesn't occur to a woman because we are vicious. You don't want us in the military.

RANTEL: Uh, uh, you're not being tongue-in-cheek here, Ann, at all?

COULTER: No, I am not. I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek about how vicious women are, but I do think it is a serious problem having women in the military. Men are used to this sort of thing. I mean, C. S. Lewis himself said, remarking on the differences between men and women, if your dog bit a neighbor's child, who would you like to go deal with: the woman of the house or the man of the house? Men are much more capable of engaging in combat and still being honorable about it. I'll give you another example that seems completely off-point and perhaps you'll think I'm insane but I was watching the White House Correspondents' Dinner on Saturday night and, you know, Jay Leno was telling a lot of jokes, cutting both ways, and you see people, even somewhat slimy people like Richard Ben-Veniste in the audience, but he was laughing uproariously at the jokes--even the ones that were to the detriment of John Kerry or the Democrats. But the women journalists, ohhhh, they're very dour, they're angry, they don't laugh if the joke doesn't go their way. This is what women are like. Men are better at engaging in combat while behaving in an honorable way. And it is--now I will swing back to the abuse photos.

RANTEL: Yeah.

COULTER: It is simply a fact--I have only seen five of the abuse photos--there are females in two of them. We don't have a military that's 40 percent female.

RANTEL: Now there's the one picture with the girl--that woman with the cigarette hanging out of her mouth--the woman soldier with the cigarette--and she's holding the gun at the guy's genitals. Is that the one you're referring to?

COULTER: There's that one and there's also a female in a pile-of-bodies photo.

RANTEL: Right. Well, you know, this is an angle I hadn't thought of. What--

COULTER: And [unintelligible] a woman general--a girl general.

RANTEL: The brigadier general, [Janis] Karpinski.

COULTER: Yeah, and, of course, we have affirmative action to get more women generals--girl generals--running the--Come on! Come on! That's silly. No civilized society allows women in the military--this is separate and apart from the fact that you should not be allowing women to fight.

RANTEL: I'm a little speechless only because I can imagine some our listeners saying, "Ann is a woman. Ann is an amazingly successful woman, you know, three times New York [Times] best-selling author and great political commentator and successful at everything she's ever done. Why do you think that women can't do these jobs in the military?"

COULTER: Well you definitely wouldn't want me fighting in this war--all 99 pounds of me--if you want to win. [Coulter cackles]

RANTEL: But wait. Wait a minute. I recognize that there are physical differences between the average man and the average woman with the possible exception of Janet Reno, but I'm talking about--

COULTER: [cackles]

RANTEL: But you seem to be making a blanket statement that putting women in general, as females, in the military is a bad idea.

COULTER: Yes, and in addition to our manifest physical limitations, I think women are more vicious than men.

RANTEL: That would explain Hillary Clinton.

COULTER: Yes!

RANTEL: [Laughs]

COULTER: It would explain the White House Correspondents' Dinner with these dour feminists sitting, frowning at jokes that cut against them. You know, I will admit that there are many men who are women [Coulter chuckles] and there are some women who can behave like men, but as a general matter, women are overwhelmingly unable physically to be in the military and I think also psychologically.

RANTEL: Yeah, that's the part I'm getting to. So you think there's a psychological difference between them. We know the physical is obvious.

COULTER: It's in our genes to protect the hearth and home. to respond viciously to the enemies, to intruders, whereas, just think of immediately after the 9/11 attack, I was huffing and puffing and fuming the very night of it that we weren't already dropping bombs in Afghanistan?--

RANTEL: But I think a lot of guys--men and women were, don't you think?

COULTER: I suspect that actually is how the Democrats would have responded because they are women. . .

I'd prefer "rabidly self-loathing", but hey, if the shoe fits. At least the transcriptionist got the [cackle] part right, what a freaking witch.

Let's review, so far we are blaming gays* and women. (*or at least homosexual tendencies, which I certainly wouldn't argue, but we would have to talking about repressed homosexual tendencies in "straight people," since Spc. Charles Graner (who worked in a prison stateside) and Pfc. Lynndie England, the man and woman figuring prominently in the photos were lovers, and none of the others implicated were openly gay.)

What a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious.

Personally I think it's incredibly naive to believe that such acts as these are not fairly typical of both war and prison situations in general, and to argue that they simply didn't happen, as some in this thread seem to want to believe, in the face of an explicit internal US Army report that they did is just willful avoidance.

Anyone familiar with Dr. Stanley Milgram's work or the Stanford Prison Experiments in the 70s would probably consider such events almost inevitable. In fact, these acts of 'mild' mind games and pseudo-sexually-based humiliation are almost exactly what the Standford experiments produced, down to the stripping, bags on the heads, golden showers and the small dick jokes, and these were "normal guys" without any additional motives of possibly obtaining valuable information or any "intelligence" lurking around dropping hints about 'softening' interrogation techniques.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and having the scruples to resist such corruption is a factor independent of gender, sexuality, race or creed.

(except for republicans...


joke!)

In spite of the the tone and the focus about Arab reactions in most of the reportage, I think Americans are far more outraged by it than Arabs, because Americans insist on promoting a totally unrealistic and sugar-coated view of both war and human behaviour in general, and we're always shocked when the truth leaks out. We'd like to pretend I suppose that most people, having listened to the lamentations about the horror perpetrated on our country for three solid years and then put in a situation of total control over 'suspect Iraqis,' would probably serve them chamomile tea, play some Yanni and run warm bubble-baths for them.

You can continue to argue whether these acts were "torture" all you want and whether it's a 'gay thing' or a 'female thing,' it doesn't really matter, The only question is whether you think it's excusable behaviour--for anyone.