What was Mr. Bush thinking?
 

February 7, 2005

Jefferson Press Release



Probably that La. could wait for the next administration to provide the finances to build newer/better levee systems?


I'm sure it doesn't give Mr. Jefferson or the citizens of La. any satisfaction to say they tried to tell Him so.


..sorry, i'm not normally a politically vocal person but this particular issue hit a nerve after the hurricane.

yeah, me neither:

So what does that have to do with Bush. Even a retarded congressman should know that money gets allocated by the legislative branch not the executive. Did he introduce any bills or amendments for more money?


This just sounds like the tired old political ploy where people who decide to live in flood zones and hurricane prone beaches try to get government money to subsidize their choice instead of paying their own way.

i was just reading about this thing here

and sort of related metafilter story on Bunnatine
here


30 year itch

These cuts went into effect 2 months ago, it has nothing to do with the situation going on in New Orleans right now. Two months is not enough time to see a monster storm coming and re-enforce the levees and improve pumps. I would say both parties, federal and local are at fault for not being prepared. That’s if you need someone to blame. Not a time to start pointing figures, visit this web site instead http://www.redcross.org/

well... maybe 2 years is enough then

this isn't the first storm that's been in the gulf.

the others were just warm-ups since that last big one in 1969.

mr. jefferson said he wouldn't stop trying and i'm sure he didn't. his cause just wasn't deemed important enough to the right people i fear.

go figure.

btw, i wouldn't give a dime to the red cross.

Really!!??

If you knew this for a fact why didn't you tell anybody? BTW what is your special technique to predict hurricanes?

and what people are you talking about?

Then keep your money, no-one asked you too.

same here... the red cross is a bureaucratic wasteland, the salvation army gets my donations

It's called statistics; a type of math. A lot of things in life must suprise you if you don't understand it.

what are the odds that one of these systems will become a hurricane
in a day or 2 ?

So does this mean the left is done with the grieving mother for political gain?

A quote “We haven't even buried the dead yet, and they're trying to pin the untold lives and livelihoods lost on an opponent for political gain.”

And No two years is not enough, the levees are 15 feet high. The storm surge was about 22 feet high, do the math, are you having me believe that the Bush Administration purposefully underfunded the levees, and that this underfunding directly caused the catastrophe in New Orleans?

Now do some research and you learn New Orleans has spent $450,000,000 on the levees over the last ten years, that leaves at least $250,000,000 in crucial projects which has not been spent. They are spending about $45,000,000 per year, that gives them almost six years worth of crucial projects yet to be done. The money was reduced starting in 2004, so in fact no more than 1.5 years of the remaining six years worth of projects was incomplete due to funding cuts. All the rest wouldn't have been done yet anyway. But somehow, finishing 25% of the crucial projects remaining would have saved the city.


http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3332317

In other words, even if the Federal government had sent trillions of dollars, it wouldn't have made a difference. A 15-foot wall doesn't contain a 22-foot surge. Once the water is over the levee in any quantity, it starts scouring the levee from the face of the earth.

Cont later…

from Popular Science in May 2005:

The Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale defines a category-5 storm as one with "winds greater than 155 miles per hour and storm surge generally greater than 18 feet." Although hurricanes of this magnitude slamming directly into New Orleans are extremely rare—occurring perhaps every 500 to 1,000 years—should one come ashore, the resulting storm surge would swell Lake Pontchartrain (a brackish sea adjoining the Gulf of Mexico), overtop the levees, and submerge the city under up to 40 feet of water. Once this happened, the levees would "serve as a bathtub," explains Harley Winer, chief of coastal engineering for the Army Corps's New Orleans District. The water would get trapped between the Mississippi levees and the hurricane-protection levees. "This is a highly improbable event," Winer points out, "but within the realm of possibility."

So now we are trying to blame President Bush and the government for damage caused by a Category 5 hurricane that is historically among the three most powerful hurricanes known? Nice try, but I'll not swallow that spoonful of low grade fertilizer.

Unless President Bush can wave a magic wand and stop hurricanes and/or raise the city of New Orleans above sea level, what happened with Katrina and New Orleans was a situation that could have happened at any time in the past, could (and probably will) happen again.

It could have been a lot worse. If the eye of the hurricane had hit about 40 or 50 miles further to the west, the storm surge would have been much stronger and made the current situation look tame in contrast.

Blaming President Bush or the government for (Category 5) hurricane related flooding in a city that has always been below sea level and is completely surrounded by waterways and wetlands is ridiculous.

There are a lot of folks (who happen to work for the government) who have done, and are continuing to do everything they can prior to and in the wake of this devastating storm.

Everyone has the right to speak as they wish. I choose to not disrespect the efforts of government and emergency services personnel with politically motivated bitching.

Not a political post so forgive me for going off topic for a sec.

I think the experts in sinners quote are spot on.

In Dutch it is called a Kwel there is no English word for it but it is best translated as spring, well, or fountain if you will. It happens here every other fall/autumn and spring or so.

The water pressure on the river, lake or sea side of the levee will force water straight through it and the weight of the water on the “wet” side will push ground water up on the dry side, effectively weaken the levee. Not only the levee itself but also the ground it is build on.
Considering that New Orleans is below sea level ground water levels will be near to the surface so it doesn’t take all that much pressure (relatively speaking) before it will show up behind the levee.

Even if you build levees that are three miles high it will not protect you. Pumps are only effective over x distance and x height, even if you are able to build pumps large enough to handle such an amount of water where are you going to pump all that excess water too? Back into the lake, river or sea won’t do you any good for it won’t reduce the pressure for very obvious reasons. And pumping it all the way to Nevada where it might do some good is next to impossible.

We Dutchies know by now that if water wants to come in, it will, no matter how hard you try to keep it out. The only thing I can think of that might come close to a solution is that the state designate certain areas of (farm) land that can be flooded on purpose by breaking the levees in certain places to reduce the stress on them down stream and in densely populated areas. When it happens the farmers have to be compensated for the loss of his crops but I guess it will be a hell of a lot cheaper than rebuilding half a city.


attached image: small Kwel, the levee looks intact but water is clearly shown on the “dry” side of it. It is a prelude to a breakthrough

just in case you were wondering where your government's priorities lie:

Awww. What a shame for your terrorist allies knife.

It would be stupid and unnecessarily expensive to relocate soldiers on duty in Afghanistan and Iraq to help with Katrina relief efforts (given current needs and availability of aid).

Why? Because there are still plenty troops available still in the Country. Approximately 38,200 Army, Navy, and National Guard personnel have already been sent into the effected areas. Why bring soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq when they can get them from Louisiana, Mississippi, and Wisconsin (to name a few)? About one third of the troops are going to be allocated to help in law enforcement efforts such as help enforce curfew and quell the looting.

http://www.ngb.army.mil/

Further, military personnel are not the only folks aiding in the relief effort. Further personnel will come from other jurisdictions under "mutual aid", State and Federal disaster relief organizations, organizations like the Red Cross, and a heavy dose of disaster relief volunteers.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it takes time for the government to get things going in a disaster relief effort. The end result is that the effected areas will get whatever help they need from the Government and from private sector companies and individuals.

The Federal and State governments are actually doing pretty good so far. They were able to move in some personnel and equipment to outlying areas before the hurricane hit. Remember, this is the aftermath of a historically significant hurricane. It will take 1 - 2 years to undo the damage to the city structures. You can't reasonably expect overnight miracles.

Reading the text with an open mind also helps, bold emphasis added:

This means there could be some shifting of troops if this becomes necessary.

oh yeah, the situation looks well in hand. those darn New Orleans Emergency Management officials just don't seem to be able keep an open mind:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...top_world_news

i doubt if i'm the first person to bring this up and i'm sure i won't be the last:

do we keep pumping money into Iraq at the rate of almost a billion dollars per week, while we attempt to fund relief efforts in Louisiana and Mississippi with charitable donations? so the people of Bagdhad can bank on the US taxpayer, but the people of Biloxi and New Orleans have to count on charity?

wtf is wrong with this picture?

Wow, a Canadian sissy! What's the world coming to?

OMG 7! THE HORROR!

I hear on the news about people viciously cursing the government for not immediately granting their wishes; fucking parasites have to support themselves for the first time in their lives and all they can do is steal from others and of course it's the government's fault.

But they're no different from the city politicians who also blame the federal government for not being ready to care for them when they get into trouble.

Does anyone actually take responsibility for their own lives in this country any more? Let the worthless, stupid fucks die off and the country will be better for it.

And ffs make it clear to the morons that if they rebuild and continue to live in that ridiculously unsuitable area they'll be left to die when the next disaster occurs.

Hahahaha...what's wrong from a 'liberal' point of view is that people are free to give what they want to whom they want and the government isn't forceably taking people's money and doing what it wants with it reguardless of their desires.

Freedom is just plain wrong to your kind, isn't it knife?

Yes, given the severe nature of the storm the emergency response efforts are good. Normally, it takes at least 72 hours for emergency services to start kicking in after a major disaster. Plan ahead thinking significantly lessened that in part because some emergency services were waiting in nearby areas until the storm passed. We are just slightly beyond the 72 hour point on the hurricane landfall, and emergency services already have a good start.

I DID NOT say "things are well in hand". Of course they are not - this is only the third day following hurricane Katrina making landfall in Louisiana. Recovery from a natural disaster of this magnitude is not going to happen in a few days, or even a few weeks.

I DID say you can't expect "overnight miracles" which means there is no expedient solution. The solution takes efforts that can not be accomplished in a short period of time.

The "open mind" issue I mentioned is not aimed toward emergency services, and is clearly delineated.

It is a certainty that the efforts of the emergency services personnel (including the President and Federal Government) are more likely to result in actual disaster relief than political innuendo and bitching.

Sorry Albed but I like to think of something intelligent to say rather than spew anal sewage out of my mouth like you do.

I reiterate what I posted earilier in that i am not a political debater in the least. Right and wrong decisions have nothing to do with a particular political party and as one hurricane survivor said to press - it's not black thing or a white thing - it's a people thing.

I'm a humanitarian and would probably be called a liberal because of it, so be it.

Louisiana, Mississippi and parts of Alabama don't care about political parties or political agendas they simply want help now. Louisiana tried to get help in the past through the levee projects and the Corp of Engineers but the decision was made to cut the budget despite the Corps own protests (and proof of the dangers a major hurricanes effects) and that of its' citizens - that's the bottom line.

I guess it's easier to blame the drug addicted, poor, welfare poor, mentally ill or whatever "have-nots" you can throw in there for being in Louisiana, Miss., or Alabama.

As for Bush-blaming (for those who would call it such), I don't see one single person blaming a natural disaster on poor Mr. Bush. What I do see and hear (and it's there for all to see in the media) is blaming Mr. Bush and his administration for the not-so-wise decisions that they make and continue to make.

For ANY part of the U.S. to be compared to a 3rd world country by foreign countries is a disgrace and abomination. For anyone to still blame these people for not getting out when they had a chance is cruel and thoughtless.

It amazes me that the pro-Bush folks are in denial about this administration and no matter how many poor decisions that Mr. Bush and his cronies make. it will forever be lost on those that fail to see.

The bottom line is this administration didn't (and still doesn't) care what humanitarian services it cuts in order to fund the money trap so commonly called The War On Terror or for the support of big business.



Boston Globe (need subscription i think) -
National Guard
By Bryan Bender

But we all know that already don't we.......



As some of the worlds press sees it - some of which touches on U.S.'s part in the global warming problem:

BBC


I guess it's far too much to ask for if this president were to admit perhaps he made an error by cutting hurricane preparedness for the Gulf Coast. Probably an even farther stretch for him and his adminstration to offer an apology.

but i'll apologize for not being a real debater.

Just when I thought people couldn't get any lamer...make a post or shut up ffs.

Oh pipe down, numbskull.

Reserved for tm bashing when time permits. :f:

http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/cl...i.families.cnn

Nice try knife, you should work for the NYT, they like to tell half-truths and tell half the story too. Good video though, shows how President Bush is emotionally involved and helping out in any way he can.


and goldie, The budget cuts have nothing to do with what is happened or happening in New Orleans - that is the bottom line....but...

“What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires — desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.”

— Bertrand Russell, “Roads to Freedom”



In the rational world you do not shift funds going toward defense and war related activities esp. in the aftermath of 9/11. The levees were designed for a catagory 3 storm, not a 4 or a 5. In 2004 there were propals to upgrade the levees to be capable for a level 4/5 storm. Even if construction started, after the studies of course, it would have not been completed until 2008.

Do you really believe the Bush Administration does not care about the people in New Orleans? Do you really truely believe that? Things take time, help is coming in a huge way, everyone is doing the best they can right now, millions of people right across America want to help.

Well take your time and think and then click the reply button at the bottom of the thread instead of sticking it into a spot where it's out of sequence.

Are you trying to make people think your smarter than you are by doing it that way? There's a lot of other clues you'll have to hide as well.

do you think i care whether i need your approval albed.
:kiss:

You can follow the protocol the rest of us use or have attention drawn to your pathetic schemes.

If it takes you a day to compose a post, don't be ashamed, just post it when you're ready and people will treat it like every other post.

You might have taken a little more time to make that grammatical gem though.

I can only assume at this point that you have nothing of significant intelligence to add to this thread albed accept your usual boring dribble.

obviously you are the weakest link.

goodbye.

Don't you mean except? Yeah, I'm the fucking dimwit.

You probably mean drivel instead of dribble but wtf.

yet another fun and phony photo op by the action-figure prez*:

*disclaimer edit: Action-Figure President Bush Set includes Action-Figure President Bush, Karl Rove, White House photographer, and photo opportunity.

All props such as ermergency personnel, military personnel, emergency and military equipment, and disaster backdrop not included. batteries also not included.

Stonewall Scotty, back in action.

they actually have these conversations with straight faces.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0801146_5.html